Thoughts on female harvest, specifically in Colorado

[jed]

The CDOW has recently posted a Lion Harvest Report for the 2009/2010 season on their website. Although it might not be up to the “minute” accurate and they still recommend calling the quota hotline before hunting, it’s some interesting and valuable information.

I’d like to encourage some discussion from everyone, but especially from Colorado guys as to why there is a continued tendency to harvest females – especially in areas where the CDOW states “hunters are requested to continue voluntarily refraining from the take of female lions” or “The DOW emphasizes the need for hunters to reduce the take of female mountain lions in these units.”

It seems to me that in all the conversations with other houndsmen, all the website postings, all the conversations with clients of various outfitters and even hunters who don’t have their own dogs but tag along with someone who does – female harvest is frowned upon; yet continues to happen. As of the recent harvest report information referred to above, it occurred 38% of the time so far this season. 107 females harvested statewide and 50 of them from units where our DOW asks that we “voluntarily reduce or restrain from” female harvest.

Rarely is female harvest ever applauded in the hounding community as we all seem to say things like “dead cats don’t make tracks” or “most all adult females have dependant young or are pregnant”. Yet guys with hounds and their hunting friends and/or clients are still killing females.

What makes a houndsman/hunter sacrifice his/her spoken ethics – saying one thing then doing another?

How do houndsmen/hunters expect to get cooperation from those agencies making the rules/season dates/harvest quotas when their requests are not honored?

In closing, let me state that the harvest of female lions in Colorado is not illegal – and those that are putting their tag on females are not doing anything wrong. . . .from a legal standpoint. Ethically, and for the future of hound hunting, I have own opinion and I think it’s obvious in this post. Each of you is entitled to your opinion as well and that’s what I’d like to hear. Thanks, j

[papa]

I can't call to mind a situation where people do a very good job regulating their own behavior...don't look for it too happen in this case. Especially when money or ego is involved. Had a hunter that wanted a lion and I told him no females. He promptly went to another houndsmen and they harvested a 100lb female. I am the last to want more regulation from game and fish, however, I don't see any other realistic solution. I don't claim to have the answer here, but something needs to be done.

[FullCryHounds]

Jed, I'd like to see some figures on what percentage of those 50 females taken so far have been with an outfitter. I'd bet the majority have been shot by paying clients. Money usually comes first and the females lose.

[Brady Davis]

Most "guys with hounds" (not houndsmen) have as much self control as a fat girl in a candy store! The idea of refraining from taking females to them might sound good till they are looking up into a tree. I went out hunting the other day and a guy had a buddy along. his theory was "I'll kill whatever we tree" and to be honest I was hoping like hell we didn't tree a lion. It wasn't my spot or my dogs so I didn't have a say but I was sick at the thought of killing a female or worse a immature female or male for that matter. On this board the consensus is common that we don't kill females if we can avoid it...Guess what, while there may be a handful of retards on here, most houndsmen I know who would kill a female at the drop of a hot don't ever get on here. Guys who spend time on this board at all are usually pretty decent and seem to be well educated houndsmen. Seems like everybody I meet and they find out I lion hunt, all of a sudden they wanna kill a lion for their trophy room. If I would take those guys out I'd wipe out a population...cause they are gonna hunt lions once. They could care less what we tree. That's why I choose not to hunt with "buddies" like that. I beleive our sport is on the fritz enough with antis, etc and we don't need to add to it by killing all our females.

As comedian Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid!" ....I have found that very true in most instances!

[Big Mike]

Lots of reasons guys kill female.

1) is the obvious the outfitters. They might not want to kill females but when you have client paying you 3k+ wanting to kill a lion its hard to talk them out of it. Ive been in those shoes. I was hunting with an outfitter buddy a couple of years ago. We drug this guy around 8 days horseback and caught a small female on the eighth day. There was no way we could talk that guy out of killing that lion. I know a few outfitters that wont let their clients kill feamles and i have much respect for those guys

2) young hunters who havnt caught alot are eager to kill. They believe all the bullsh$t people say about too many lions and think there is plenty so it doesnt matter. I too did this when I started. I was showing a couple friends some of my old hunting videos the other day and there was alot of dead females in it.

3) some just plain dont care and dont have ethics or respect for the animals they hunt

On thebright side attitudes are getting better. 20-30 years ago everyone was killing most everything treed. Now day more and more are letting females go.

All we can do is try to educate the younger hunters and lead by example

[reed]

A couple of different reasons.
1. Money, money, money. Guys that get paid to take people out don't get paid unless there is a dead lion, what ever the size.

2. Like Brady said the guys that don't keep dogs but want to harvest a cat. They treat cats like any other game animal. i.e. elk and deer. The cats are everywhere to them. They don't realize what it takes to keep and train dogs, good ones or bad ones. But these people are not totally to blame. The guy with the dogs are also to blame by supporting the behavior and treeig cats for them.

3. The 'its ok for me to do but no one else syndrome.' Or 'if I do it, it is only one female.' The problem is when ten people do it then there are ten dead females, and kittens if you want to add that.

4. Ranchers. If you have permision to hunt private land and are told to kill anything you catch or you won't continue to have permision to hunt the private land. I know a couple of people that got kicked off ranches because of this.

5. There are just guys out there that have dogs to kill a lion. Once they get the trophy they don't care about the sport or anyone else that might.

I think the worst part about this in Colorado is that they are giving us, houndsman, a chance to fix the problem but we are not taking our operutinity. We already had bear hunting taken away and are not looked at very keenly. The DOW will not hesitate to take cat hunting away or at least put more restrictions on it. They also will get lots of approval from the general public. One thing that could help is a stronger more supported houndsman association.

[liontracker]

Yep to all that, and I might add that it won't matter much anyway. They killed two of those collared females over on the Uncompahgre study and orphaned the kittens. GPS'd and documented fact. Now Ken Logan and his tree huggin' contingenthave the ammo they were looking for in the first place. Lion hunting in CO as we now know it is over. He told me at a meeting that he did not think lions should be hunted period, yet the DOW hired him anyway. I think this was his plan all along. Hope you had a good season, because it will only get worse.

[Mike Leonard]

Well I am not going to pull out and give you all a big long dicertation about all this.

I will say however northern NM cougar populations is in bad shape. but what has been done has not been truely scientific. So look for some severe cougar/human interaction this summer season.

Oh by the way, can you say matrix? Ha! Ha! thought you could!

[Mr.pacojack]

It's like a prostitute, Nobody claims to have been with one but they sure enough stay in business. Same with killing of females, nobody claims to killing one but it sure enough happens.
My take on it in both situations is... That is all they can get.

[B-N-Trees]

I think the worst part about this in Colorado is that they are giving us, houndsman, a chance to fix the problem but we are not taking our operutinity. We already had bear hunting taken away and are not looked at very keenly. The DOW will not hesitate to take cat hunting away or at least put more restrictions on it. They also will get lots of approval from the general public. One thing that could help is a stronger more supported houndsman association.

Well said Reed.
Cat hunting with hounds in this state is a very fragile privilege! But it is our heritage and if we want to preserve it we will also have to preserve the creatures and critters that we hunt with our hounds. This is called conservation, a practice that must be fallowed to ensure the healthy populations of wildlife and our hunting privileges.
I am on board with the idea that we need to be involved with houndsmen associations and such that address these issues and concerns. I for one would like to learn more about what I can do to get involved in whatever it takes to help us keep our privileges to hunt with hounds.
Like Big Mike points out, we need to commit to the next generation to educate them and lead by example.

[blackpaws]

if it's not money some of it could be non-residents. i am not saying all non-residents do it but a lot do shoot females.

[blackpaws]

if it's not money some of it could be non-residents. i am not saying all non-residents do it but a lot do shoot females.

[Brady Davis]

It's like a prostitute, Nobody claims to have been with one but they sure enough stay in business. Same with killing of females, nobody claims to killing one but it sure enough happens.
My take on it in both situations is... That is all they can get.

Very True!

[jube baker]

Outfitters and new hunters that dont know any better.

[jed]

Some interesting input – mostly what I expected to hear; outfitters, new guys, nonresidents etc. I have numerous examples of exactly what you’re all talking about. However, I also have examples of “self proclaimed” long time houndsmen who, according to their actions, harvest every cat that climbs in front of their dogs regardless of sex, size/age, or property boundary. What drives this desire of disrespect for lions, fellow houndsmen, the DOW, private landowners and/or their paying lease holder, etc.?

Dean, I agree – I too would like to see some figures on who is harvesting those females! Do you know of any way to access that information? I know that for other species (sheep & goat) a guy can look at harvest reports and kill site information. Is such information available on lions?

Brady, also agree with what you shared. However, in my opinion, it’s a crying shame when guys don’t even have the spine to stand up to their buddies with the “willing to kill whatever we tree” mentality. For the sake of lion hunting – put a foot down – if a guy genuinely preaches against the harvest of females, then he should practice that in all actions, especially in front of his buddies! I’m of the opinion that if my dogs tree it, I have final say in what happens at the tree.

And Brady, I can’t resist asking – what the heck are you doing out hunting without your dogs?

Big Mike, Reed, and others – all valid points. I’m guessing you’ve all observed these things happening as have I.

C’mon Mr. Leonard – we usually learn something when you post! I think we all know how you feel on this subject and thanks for sticking to your guns with a consistent “sermon” over the years on this subject. You’re a good example.

Devin – As always, straight and to the point. Appreciate your angle and agree too!

Blackpaws – you are absolutely correct! I witnessed this firsthand both last year and again this year. Ironically, this years’ incident was a 3 man party from WI. Came to Colorado for 10 days on Christmas vacation – when we spoke on a forest road there was only 2 remaining here, they stated their buddy who came out with them shot the first cat they treed and flew home to get back to work. They were packing around a second cat in the cooler, and looking for a third so they could “tag out” and head back home. 1 female and 1 100# tom – and the next track was in trouble because they were on a mission.

Let me ask for some opinions on another angle of the regulations here in CO. Our DOW has divided our lion quota areas into 3 different classifications; as stated in my opening post. The first group the DOW asks for “continue voluntarily refraining from the take of female lions”. The second the DOW “emphasizes the need for hunters to reduce the take of female lions”. The third group, the DOW “does not make any special requests of hunters regarding the take of female lions”. What are your thoughts on female harvest in this third group of units? With all we’ve talked about thus far – is it acceptable to cast our ethics aside and go ahead and harvest females in these units? Personally, I’m against it!