Thoughts on female harvest, specifically in Colorado

[liontracker]

It's called the Colorado Houndsmen Association. Most of the officers are on the east slope. Light a fire under their ass.

[Brady Davis]

It's called the Colorado Houndsmen Association. Most of the officers are on the east slope. Light a fire under their ass.

I was a paid memeber of the association for a year. I'm not making personal digs or attacks on anyone but it sure enough seemed like the Colorado Houndsmen Association was WAY MORE into a few night hunts and coon hunting than anything else. I never got a newsletter or anything that mentioned big game hunting. I wonder if it would be better to change that a bit or have a "Colorado BIG GAME houndsmen association" or something of the sort.

Nice group, I've been to the night hunts a few times but, they are COON hunters.

[jed]

Some good discussion here and some good questions presented. I don’t have all the answers on how to best control populations without harvesting females, or on how to deal with “problem cats” bothering pets or hobby farm livestock. I have opinions and I’ll certainly share those if you ask but in the end they’re just my thoughts and they’re probably worth what they cost.

Some information has surfaced in this thread about houndsmen groups in CO. Seems like both positive and negative experiences as I kind of read between the lines. Understanding that these efforts often originate from volunteer time, I’d like to ask respectfully that everyone hold the negative and just provide some contact information if they have it available. I am aware of 3 different groups that have been stakeholders at one time or another, dealing with hound hunting and regulations in CO. They are as follows;

Colorado Houndsmen Association

United Houndsmen of Colorado

Four Corners Houndsmen Association

If anyone can help by posting contact information, membership information, meeting/event schedules, or any other information – I think that would be helpful to all.

Dean, thanks for posting that link – that’s exactly where I found the data that originated this post. And – per your request, added a signature with name and location. Wouldn’t it be something if we could get some sort of “houndsmen transparency” deal going – easy access to who’s harvesting what? Maybe that’s a terrible idea as it would surely expose the differences of opinions. . . .although I have to say, in most cases, accountability is not a bad thing! Let me know if you make any progress on the harvest information data reports. I’m exploring that too and seem to be making some progress. I’ll keep everyone posted. j

[liontracker]

I don’t have all the answers on how to best control populations without harvesting females,

You Can't.

or on how to deal with “problem cats” bothering pets or hobby farm livestock.

You kill them.

I have opinions and I’ll certainly share those if you ask but in the end they’re just my thoughts and they’re probably worth what they cost.

It is the collective value of the opinions of the houndsmen that carries the weight. Not a handfull of guys. We are a vast minority. I think less than 1200 lion tags are sold each year. Only a fraction of them own hounds. The antis numbers on the east slope are huge.

Four Corners Houndsmen Association

Now Defunct

United Houndsmen of Colorado

Brady, this is the current one, mainly for Biggame Hunters.

Wouldn’t it be something if we could get some sort of “houndsmen transparency” deal going – easy access to who’s harvesting what?

Can't happen, due to the Patriot Act. If you do figure this one out let me know, I would love a list of names and addresses of who buys liscenses in the state of CO.

[Brady Davis]

If the United Houndsmen of Colorado are the big game guys, like Jed said, can anyone post contact info or something on how we can get in contact with them?

[liontracker]

Last I heard, Dave Accashian(sp), Pine CO, was the Tres/Sec.

[FullCryHounds]

Yes, last I heard, Dave was involved with them. Probably not such a good thing. Dave is not very well respected around here.

[houndogr]

Female harvest has been a problem in areas where i hunt. For the last two seasons i have been running into people in jeep cherokees and about any other type of suv's you can think of. Lots of people in the woods looking for lion tracks, they never have dogs with them they are always looking for tracks for so and so. These guys dont care how big a lion is, most of them have never seen one, or know what they are looking for, they just want to kill one, no matter the size. I can always tell what roads they have driven because they walk down every elk track that crosses for at least 50 feet. Really i do not consider them a threat to the lion population when they catch two or three lions a year, but is sucks that they kill anything they tree females or young toms.
Dean, i am curious why Dave is not respected in your area.
I know dave and have hunted with him, he's a good houndsmen, and an honest guy. I wish more hound guys were like him, and they would leave these females and young toms in the tree.

[Brady Davis]

Really i do not consider them a threat to the lion population when they catch two or three lions a year, but is sucks that they kill anything they tree females or young toms.

Problem is, 2 or 3 cats in many areas shuts down a unit

[gravedigger]

First off let me put a disclamer in that I believe in what you guys are saying.you all are very passionate about this sport and I can honestly say i don't think any other big Game Has a following as committed as the people I've seen on this board.Also let me say I have nothing good to say about DOW here in Colorado.i don't break the law but have had some bad run ins with them.I don't own hounds but like them just the same.With the help of Pacojack I will in the near future have one.I have Jagdterriers and Curs.Someday I hope that I can stand under a tree and look up and see a cat that the dogs have put up there.Righting letters to the commissioners are good attending meetings are good.But you half to get to other hunters to stand with you.You guys don't want to have females taken for obvious reasons,but possibly these same people wouldn't hesitate to shoot a limit of Ducks and included in that limit are hens.Why is it okay for one and not the other?I live as far East in this state as you can get(Sterling,Co)when you start talking about the eastern part I take offense.i've hunted with some people from the COLO Hounds group,good people but they are after coons not cats.We need to have meetings or talk with them to form a tight nit group for everyones benefit.Other hunters as well.I can't tell you how many people that hunt big game(deer & elk) that don't give a care about bears or cats.it doesn't affect them so they don't care.Sure it affects them when those animals numbers are down but then it's someone elses fault not the fact we have to many predators.I will give you a prime example.I have a very good freind whom I've hunted with for 20 years.Every bit of the sportsman when it comes to hunting.For years he was against hunting bears or cats with dogs.He felt it wasn't fair to the animal being hunted.I can't tell you how many heated discussions we have had.Finally he is beginning to see the error of his ways and has said he would stand for the hound hunters.My point being we need to do some serious politican to other hunters to get the same.The anti's have alot to do with the situation but other hunters also.One more thing,it's my belief that DOW is setting us up to fail.That way they don't half to be the bad guy.if they have the means to set Quota's why are they allowing a certain number of tags in a unit and turning around and saying,but we don't want that many females taken in that area.if you don't want that many taken then put the quota at the amount you want taken.Because they know people as a whole will take what they can and not police themselves.And I'm not talking about the people who run hounds for the love of the chase.if someone doesn't like what I had to say you can call me at 970.554.0560-Shawn Rewoldt I would be happy to talk.

[liontracker]

The quota is a combination of males and females. We as hunters have the tools available( computer and telephone) to monitor the take of females. The DOW has clearly stated in the proclamations the areas of concern. If the computer tabulation is not updated, then call your local biologist in charge and get it yourself. The real problem is that people are treating lions like money. How many people in this country, if driving down the road and a bag full of hundred dollar bills fell out of the vehicle in front of them, would turn ALL the money in. How many would keep it and say nothing. Morals and ethics...that's the real issue controlling this problem.

[Colohunter]

I can certainly agree with most of whats been said on harvesting females. I would just like to add that most of the units were the dow doesnt put any restrictions on harvesting females are units along the front range were human and cat conflicts are the highest. The dow would most certainly would like lower cat numbers in these areas, but I personally think the more pets and goats and llamas that get munched in these areas the better for our sport. Remember how easly our bear hunt was lost. I say let these cats reproduce and do P.R. work for us and our sport. John

[dogman68]

I know very few outfitters that kill females or kittens, but there is a faction here in arizona that is only interested in "how many". the law says, "females accompanied by spotted kittens are not legal" but we all know that for the most part, spotted kittens usually do not accompany the female. Pretty sad.

[Ike]

This whole change to the lion season structure came about due to one group called Sinapu. It is basically one vocal woman, (from Boulder). She came to every commision meeting hammering about how too many females, and lions, where being killed. She threatened to get a ballot initiative to stop lion hunting if something wasn't done. She wanted to see less then 40% female harvest. The DOW pulled a fast one on her but it got her to shut up. What they did was come up with the ID test we all had to take. That did help since we are now below the 40% female take.

That word Sinapu took me back fifteen or more years, as I believe she was a voice from the past in the introduction of wolves in Yellowstone. That was the name of a group who was giving Andy Lightbody crap in Gunnison Colorado over hunting in the local papers from the Front Range.

I personally believe we as lion hunters should limit the female take (if not eliminate it) for sport harvest. However, we should not have the fish and game limit or eliminate it because female lions will need taken off depredation, public safety and may well be taken accidentally by hounds. In each of those cases, it's better for the sportsmen to be able to tag that animal rather than a state agency.

The best way to limit female harvest is education from state agencies and sportsmen groups. Whoever mentioned forming houndsmen groups touched on the answer, and that is get people involved and talk about the issues and address any edcuation problems you can. We all have video of females lions, young toms and old toms alike. Those videos can be shared to help educate newcomers (like the fish and game did on their website) so people don't unknowingly harvest them.

Houndsmen are not going to stop guides from taking females for clients; the guides have to do that by realizing the results of their actions. We can be careful about selling trained hounds to visitors to our sport--people that don't respect the lion and are only their to take or remove them. I had a guy tell me once why book a lion hunt when you can buy a trained hound for $2000 bucks, go catch and kill your own lion and then sell that hound to retrieve your money. But I think talking is good and provides each of us a chance to consider how our actions impact the lion population, the sport and our future as hunters.

Personally I've turned down dozens upon dozens of people who want to book a lion hunt because our resource has become too limited--and that's coming from a guy that is licensed and permitted. Bottom line is we either attempt to limit and educate others about their actions or push laws that limit them and everybody else. I've walked away from a lot of trophy tom lions in recent years on open units with a tag in my pocket, all the while knowing the first guy that trees that tom behind me will kill it. But it's easy when you're alone and have NO pressure to harvest, but walk a flatlander into a 90 pound bitch lion and they'll usually not want to walk away. Ultimately the man who trains the hounds is responsible for the take and outcome........as for the public, peoplel like Sinapu would love nothing better than take lion hunting away from the Colorado sportsmen..

ike

[Mr.pacojack]

Can we form some type of committe to attend DOW meetings and have inteligent conversation?. I know when I lived in Utah guys were organized to attend the meetings...I know I'd be happy to participate any way possible...

Brady, The problem here in Colorado is, the houndsmen are so divided. I hear all the time houndsmen bitching about other houndsmen. Look on this board, there are guys that try so hard on proving that there is a difference between coonhounds and biggame hounds and stiring up so much crap.The point is we are houndsmen first and we need to stick together and fight for our hunting rights.
The Utah club worked because they came together as houndsmen.I was there in the start of the "Coonhound Club" that started the ball rolling. Alot of discussion was on how we were going to get some of the old timers out to the meeting and give there input.They were divided as far as coon houndsmen and biggame houndsmen.They got it done, But not by saying that "You are biggame hunters and we are Coonhunters and vise versa.
I guess what I am saying is they overcame this, " I have the greatest biggame dogs or the only true biggame dogs " "You are Coonhunters and We are Biggame hunters".
WE need to leave our dogs and color of dogs and wheather they are biggame hounds or coonhounds out of our discusions and come thogether as HOUNDSMEN.

Agree to disagree for the sake of our hunting rights