How important is the female in breedings

[cat and bear]

I'm sure this is a ford and chevy question. But is the female the most important in a cross? obvious 50%, 75%? 25%? I would like to hear what you got to say.

[Dan Edwards]

Both the male and the female are extremely important in the breeding. I would waste your time tryin to figure out percentages and all that shit cause it seriously is just a waste of time. Just know that both male and female are extremely important and if you ever have any doubt or reservations ever about a breeding, dont make it. Other than that, lets see some doggy porn.

[Big Mike]

I say its female is just as important as the male. Ive bred great males to so so females and came out with a few great pups. Only time we were able to breed a top female to a top male we ended up with 6 pups all making top dogs.

[Melanie Hampton]

Why wouldn't they be just as important as the male? I don't know percent wise what the pups get of parents genetic wise... but.. no matter what, it better be good on both sides...

[sourdough]

The offspring of any animal on this planet for the exception of a few get half their DNA from both parents. That does not mean that every pup in a litter will carry the same desirable traits as either of the parents, but by breeding to the very best hunting females with very best hunting males will up your chances. A lot of working females only get bred a few times in their life, for a couple reasons. (1) What it takes out of them, and (2) they are too valuable to lay up for the time it takes for the total whelping process. I lean more towards how good the female is over the male just for the plain simple fact that you want a pup out of the best not just a brood female with a pedigree. I will admit that there are some breeders out there that can tell you pretty close how a cross will turn out before it’s made, but Damn few. That’s how I look at it.

sourdough

[catdogs]

This is really a can of worms, but I'd say 75% female. 50-50 on the genetics and another 25% for the "nurturing" or behaviorisms the pups will get from her til they are weaned. My experience is more with horses than dogs though. JMO

[Ike]

So let's expand that question a little and say does breeding a pair of dogs pass on genetics or learned behavior? Example: if a female is bred at two years of age does she produce the same quality of pups (if bred to the same male on both crosses) as that same female would produce at six?

ike

[jimmyd]

I don't know for sure. I had an English Setter female we bred when she had her first heat cycle because my old friend wanted a 3 way cross with his old male Vizla\ Brittney. That first litter of pups was the most natural hunting dogs I have been around. All would hunt, point, honor everything, as young dogs their first season. The mother even turned out to be an excellent hunting dog in her own right. That was 20 years ago, I wouldn't breed a dog now without knowin what it is capable of but, that first cross was the best and we did it 2 more times and didn't even come close. So they did produce hunting dogs without her having any hunting experience. JMO

[sourdough]

Interesting question Ike, some old time breeder say no with the respect to age, they would rather have pups out of the first cross off a young bitch apposed to the same cross with that bitch being over six. Never giving their reason why they felt that way just that it was their observation. I personally don’t have the litters behind me to know, but if it is fact then I have let a lot of great crosses go, before I made the decision to breed any of the females that I bred.

sourdough

[Ike]

Well I surely don't know either and most likely never will bred dogs long enough to find out. But to my way of thinking, genetics are genetics and a bitch or male isn't nearly the dog at two that it is at five or six--yet I don't see any reason why the offspring would change in the same cross. We all know and admit that about every pup in the same litter is different, much like us. That doesn't mean they aren't all good hunters it just mean they have different traits and behavior--or likes and dislikes. And if the same female was crossed to the same male half a dozen times over the years, the differences would be greater because more pups would be involved.

I look at siblings in the same family and see the amount of similarities and differences in each offspring. Then after witnessing and observing that know pups from the same cross are going and will always differ but have many similarities as well.

We all want to prove up a hound before we cross it on both sides of the breeding, but does it really make a difference if that dog was fired and started or finish and proven beyond a doubt cause the genetics hasn't changed?

Just food for thought and nothing more........

ike

[Big Mike]

I agree genetics dont change regardless of age. It doesnt matter if it a year old spike elk or when he is a 9 year old 400 inch bull he still going to throw the same genetics

[sourdough]

Ike and Big Mike are right! Genetics are genetics are genetics! Desired traits on the other hand are a crap shoot, regardless of Genetics.

sourdough

[cat and bear]

Some great opinions. Here is why I ask. I believe that your breeding at least five generations on both sides, that hits the ground in the litter, probably more. I dont breed good hank and hanna. I want to know them, and everything around them. I bred my best female, good blood, actually came out west, had some of our stock in her. bear deluxe, cold trailed for me since two. And run a bobcat good on snow, Bred her to my male which is 20 years in the making, out of reg and grade dogs, and 4 pups, all but one, turned out. Six months later, she got bred by a young walker male by accident. I'm not talking down lines, but one of the hottest on this sight. She had 8 pups. Dam, I'm not sure if any are going to turn out. maybe two at best. The first litter, did my male carry all the genetic's? the second litter, did that male? By the way, the high bred registered male, is average. So, that throws out the 5 generations of genetics idea The grade male which I've worked on his line for years, throws pups . I have bred him twice, to two different bitches, the other litter was five males and all made bear dogs, and cold trail, at young ages, anyone would be proud to own. So, once again, these dogs taught me, the more I think I know, the more I understand, I dont know anything

[Mike Leonard]

I have heard the old breeders say before that the first litter or two on the female will produce her best efforts in the cross. This is especially tryue with horse breeders. Not sure why but thru a lot of experience I gues they have come to some general consensus. Possibly the overall health and vitality of the female's reproductive system assures they best chance for the pups. But as was states 1/2 of the genetic make up comes from one parent and 1/2 from the other in a Hybred F-1 cross. Most breeders who have been at it a long time learn that by line breeding along the line of one of the parents they can actually increase the genetic makeup of desired qualites becasue you find both the dam and the sire carrying similar genes. This is not an easy task and it must be attempted with much care and forthought for the future. Culling is absolutley crucial as is careful observation and exposure to actually see if your breeding program is working progressively


Sourdough, I know a fellow who seems to have a knack for breeding selection and picking potential quality crosses. I am not sure how this guy does it but maybe it is a bit of a gift. Although he is a good hunter and has a Master's Degree in Animal Science I don't really think it comes from that. I have asked him before how do you do that? His answers go sort of like this. I don't know I just go out there and watch them and those little subtile things start to show up, and I recognize those as traits that have been displayed over generations of the best performing individuals. Not big glaring things and obviously things that I would miss by a country mile, but he is good at it. Maybe you have met people like that as well.

[Dads dogboy]

Folks,

I am learning to stay on the sidelines in lots of these topics....it is safer and easier on the Heartburn!

But this is a topic near and dear to Dad. Cat & Bear and Mr. Mike bring good thoughts to the it. The subjective things that Mr. Mikes friend describes are the same things that Dad has tried hard to convey to Glen and I. They are very subjective but are basically the cumulative work of the prospective parents and their sibs and parents. Hard to quantify but the true Houndsmen seem to inately know these things.

Now to the Importance of the Bitch! As we have posted before, Dad feels that the Bitch is more important to the mating than the Stud...not much...but as he says if the bitch has any weakness in any way, some or all of the Pups will express these. He tries to use the "Special" female in matings...not always...but always a very good "Solid" Hound if not a "Special" one. Nature...Nurture...both important, but the Genetic Blueprint is the ingedient that makes the Mating work!

Now the old bitch vs young bitch discussion. Dad would rather use the proven bitch but uses young bitches who fit a certain cross before something happens to them (Alligators, Snakes, Highways, etc can screw up the best of plans). Age has had little or NO effect on the outcome of the Pups. On one occasion the bitch was 8 and the stud was 10 or older the third time the cross was made. These Pups were all sevicable but maybe not as good as the first two litters as a whole, however one female turned out to be a "Special" Hound.

The same has held true with the old hunters fear of second matings. Dad has had several of these and had no adverse results

For Cat & Bear, Dad feels that the three generations preceeding the mating are the important ones that will have the most impact on the Pups. The ole quote about having no more than 20 Hounds in a five generation pedigree, is a good rule to live by.

Again in the last 10 years Dad has not had a sorry Pup in his matings. Not all were "Special" or "Solid" hounds but at the very least were all serviceable Hounds who have produced game for Dad and his friends!

Guess i have still not learned the lesson that it is better to keep my mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

C. John Clay
Dads Dogboy