Why are pedigrees so important?

[Marshall]

Ok the forum has been kind of slow and maybe its because you are all hunting....... Anyhow i have always been curious as to why pedigrees are so important to people. I personally dont care what the great great great grand dad did or grandma, I care if they came from proven parents whatever they may be and if i never have a big named or papered dog from some of those oldies but goodies that lived 100 years ago it wouldnt hurt my feelings one bit. there are good dogs in every breed and there are culls in almost every litter no matter if it came from a big name or not. So why so much focus on a name of one dog from forever ago? At the end of the day we all want to catch stuff and i honestly will probly go with grade stuff because most of the time its the best blue dog or best walker or plott or whatever and no focus on a name but just flat ability. Maybe some of you all can help me understand this please because i really don't.

[Daniel Tremblay]

I would say that the whole reason for papers is to keep a honest and straight forward history of the dogs. It is a lot easier to keep track of a certain strain of dogs and they're goods and bad with a certified name. Also same deal with a proven line. Just makes things a lot easier. I don't think a dog is considered better because it is reg. You are right with the fact that there are culls in every breed and every strain. A dog is what you make it. Just with a proven line that is some times assiocated with it being registered the dog carries a stronger natural desire to strike trail or tree. But than again being reg. doesnt mean that will be the case either.

Well i think i have rambled on long enough and thats my 2 cents

[Melanie Hampton]

How do you keep what you have if you don't know what it came from?

[Nora Cook]

People do put a lot of time into pedigrees. It is not that the dog is better just because it is papered. People take pride in breeding and knowing there dogs ancestry weather it is a grade dog or a registered dog. I know of some men that breed outstanding Cat dogs and they are grade dogs but they know what and where those dogs came from generations back. I think a person that puts the time into knowing its dogs back ground ( at least three generations back) has a way better understanding of his or her dogs strengths and weakness’s. I do agree with you that what is in the pedigree 100 years ago is worthless but it is nice to know where your dog originated from.
I see less and less threads on BGH about papered dogs VS un-papered dogs then I did a few years back as I think people are starting to understand that you have a better advantage to hunting your dog if you know where he/she came form and what traits you do or do not like. Most of your grade dog breeders have a very good pedigree system going on.

However you do get that one or two dog that you get from a friend of a friend that is outstanding and you have no clue as to where it came form..





Hope this helps a little..

[Marshall]

Nora, that is exactly what i mean. I have a dog in my kennel right now that is grade and i have no idea about the grandparents of him but i do know that he is a good dog. I agree that it is definately nice to see what all is in a dog but why is it that there is so much focused on one dog that came out of a litter 20 years ago? I mean there are good dogs that come from litters and there are bad and i don't see how you can improve that by saying there was one hell of a dog in his lines from years ago. You would have to do very select breeding to keep those traits strong and to be honest there are not many people out there that are very selective about breeding becuase they see a big name. Am i wrong here? I mean people see other people blowing a certian dog up and all of a sudden there is hype and everyone has to get a pup out of that dog from what i have noticed, so why are people looking so far back in pedigrees if there is not selective breeding? alot of people breed for looks and that is not right in my opinion. that is why i like the old hounds out of the southwest because those boys didnt care what they looked like or where they came from they just bred the best to the best and made damn good dogs. So why dont we do that?

[nmplott]

who were your grandparents and why is your ancestry important?

[Marshall]

I knew them but thats as far as it goes and i dont really care to look any further than that and my parents should have ben culled, so like i said there are exeptions in every litter well atleast i hope in my case

[cobalt]

Just because they're registered doesn't mean they aren't bred best to best. Most of the those great grade dogs that are out there are not so removed from a pedegree. A lot of those old SW hounds came from registered stock. Because people don't care to send in papers that shouldn't be a strike against the people who do. Even though I'm not a breeder by any means, I find it easier to get more consistency in my pups if I know their traits I'm particular to and their lineage as far back as I can get helps with those variables. My stud dog has one pair of ancestors in him 16 times. His pups have very predictable traits.

[Marshall]

I wasn't trying to rile anyone up i was seriously curious about this because i never understood why a big name dog was so saught after when he was dead and gone. How do you predict what there traits will be if they are bred to a dog that does not have simular traits? and i am not saying you do that but alot of people do. In my opinion if you breed dogs that have simular traits you will get pups with all of those traits but if you breed a fast dog with a slow dog or a cold nosed dog with a hot nosed dog, will you get some pups with cold noses and some with hot and do you get more consistant pups when you breed simular traits? I personally beleive so but i dont know much and that is why i am asking these questions. I am asking for imput not smart ass remarks. How much do these traits shine through when it gets watered down? or is it a gamble? I mean why not breed 2 good dogs that are right here in the now insted of breeding 2 dogs that have so and so down the line in hopes that the good will shine through? I was reading high desert hounds post and the female he has he says is slow slow slow and they seem to think it will be a great cross. Now is that on the basis that the dogs earlier in that breed were good and they are trying to bring that out? I am not and i repeat i am not saying that she is not a good dog and i dont know if she is or not, I am just using that as an example.

[Melanie Hampton]

Lets put it this way.. I don't think you should be looking at a dog in the 6th generation.. Or one that is in there once.. But if your dog is linebred off that dog, then you are going to get some of those traits.. The traits that are showing up in the family of dogs...

I want to know what I am dealing with.. I don't care if they are papered, but I do want to know what the parents do, what the aunts and uncles do, siblings and grandparents..

I think your chances of getting a dog that will turn out improve with a consistant family of dogs.. I would rather take the chance on a consistant line of dogs then getting a pup that nobody knows about and hope it is a superstar.. I hate wasting my time..

[cobalt]

Since I was the last post I assume I'm the smart ass. I can't figue why, but oh well. I'm still gonna respond. I don't want to hurt anyones feelings, but this topic interests me as I ran grade dogs(damn good ones) for a long time and have reg. dogs now. And I drank too much good coffee this mornin. I think you are 110% correct in your example of hdh's rationale to breed that bitch. If the info is correct, she has traits highly undesirable to a houndsman and it would appear that the cross is being made just because they want old Hank to live on. Those bad traits will guaranteed come out to rear their ugly heads. Their posts state that they won't sell pups. Wonder why. Because the odds are it will be a waste of ol' Hank's semen.
All breeding is a crap shoot, but there are tried and true methods to hedge the bet. Like counting cards, etc. Prepotency is something few stud dogs have. Even fewer have prepotency towards good traits. Those dogs like House's Lipper and Rock River Sackett Jr. and S.R. Jb's Chief and Kansas Sizzlin Heat and Wilcox Thunder Bingo and many others proved that they could reproduce and there are combinations that produce reproducers. Because a dog is phenominal doesn't mean anything if it can't reproduce as good or better than itself. Stacking those great dogs up in a pedigree just improves the odds, but there are no guarantees.

[Nora Cook]

Southern Dix.

It sound to me, that you are more asking why people take such hi acknowledgment about the past generations of a dog. Lipper, Houses Tom Tom , Cameron ( max),Old Sackett, and so on and so on. If that is true I have no idea.

The only reason that one would state that a dog came form that line is just to let some one know where the dog originated from and that is it. People can refer to a person that his dog is such and such breeding just to let some one know but if a person tells you that there dog is out of Blue Clide ( Old time blue dog for instance ) and that is why the dog is the way he is then they can blow smoke up any ones you know what ..It DON’T matter..

It is the same way in the horse world. I see it more in the hard competition breeders and in the people that are trying to keep a line true to its blood.

When I ask the breeders around these parts where there dogs came from, most people tell me the parents and grandparents and that is it. When you ask competition hunters or breeders you get a lot of that “ Oh he is from such and such ( that has been dead for YEARS).

If you can figure this out let me know as well because the horse world is just as bad if not worse.

This topic will go round and round.

Bottom line people are and will always be proud of what they breed whether they should be breeding or know anything about breeding there dogs.

If you like what you have and it works for you then that is all that matters.

[Marshall]

cobalt, I did not mean that you were being a smart ass and i was just implying that as a whole i would like serious answers please. Maybe i titled this tipic wrong because i am more curious as to why there is so much focus on one select dog and not so much on proven pedigrees, so that is my bad and thanks for the answers guys because i am really trying to figure out why some people breed a big name from a long time ago to just an average dog. I see that some of these dogs have so and so in them like 20 times top and bottom and that seems like that pup has more hoss in them then even hoss had if you know what im saying, so it all doesnt make much sense to me. Thanks guys for the reply's and i hope there are more so maybe my dense head can learn something.

[Ike]

I see that some of these dogs have so and so in them like 20 times top and bottom and that seems like that pup has more hoss in them then even hoss had if you know what im saying, so it all doesnt make much sense to me.

That was funny! Personally I believe more of the breeding we hear about on here is about selling pups than breeding for top dogs.......or lots of it anyway!

ike

[pegleg]

ok treeing has not been a hound trait forever, in the world of hounds it is fairly new. so I will use it as a example. now we all know ol' blue was a dyed in the wool NATURAL tree dog. his pups picked up that trait. I am looking for a tree hound. Joe is selling pups out of his hounds now I don't know Joe from Adam never hunted with him have heard some good things but that's it. Now I would not know the name of his personal hounds. I do know and recognize ol' blue since I've heard so much about what a well balanced tree hound he is and how he reproduced the same type hound even if he was bred to a jenny mule. SO i decide to go hunt with joe and see the parents in the woods ans sure enough they're treeing idiots. now since they come from ol' blue and I know he was the first real natural tree hound It makes the odds that these pups will be tree hounds as well.
This is the purpose of purebreds to try and keep some trait or many in the current genetic pool. If it's important to you ,you don't want to loose it do you? Now those traits have a value to some other folks and it's no longer a back yard or personal goal to maintain them. so you start a little association with the intent to discuss what is important to focus on. Every one hashes it out and finally agree for the most part. Now in order to assure everyone that these animals carry the traits they're breeding for and to help them remember and keep accurate records they start writing out the ancestors in order on a piece of PAPER. now we have a papered dog etc. this helps to build a case that if you breed Ol' blue XXX to Mrs. blue DD and you get papered pups from Ol' Blue's tree barkin blood lines. The problems that can make this ineffective . 1 Ol' blue's genetics were recessive or so mixed he was a fluke 2. some one started lying on the breeding 3. the females bred covered the trait up 4. the dogs that were line bred didn't get the trait or it's gene at all 5. besides the genes your looking for ol' Blue carried some baggage in negative or lethal traits that piled up through poor or ineffective breeding/culling and wiped out the line's usefulness. 6. Ol' Blue had another identifiable trait that was not the useful one. people saw this trait and started to focus their breeding on it instead and you ended up with show/pet/useless dogs as field ability was sacrificed. The positives could be that things went right the line was handled and bred for their original purpose and everyone searching for those traits or superior hounds knows where to begin searching and what individual to focus their research on.