BigGameHoundsmen.com

I don't respond to many posts but I must agree with 'twist'!.......

"Dont worry about making pups worry about making ONE good consistant hunting dog that catches you game."

That is the best advice most of us can use!

John

Good reading & respect the opinion of all. Will just say if you are breeding a male & female from proven lineage that possess the traits one is searching for, that is the best you can do & from all I/ve read and experienced the only way to know what they will produce is by hunting the offspring . Some of the best dogs I ever hunted with came from a cross of an old white & lemon female, that was suppose to be Charlie Tant breeding and a saddle back male that was suppose to be k.o. Mullins bred. Tom would keep every pup in the litter or place them with professional hunters. Every time he made that cross George Nelson & other hunters took some pups. George had one he refered to as the barking bitch that he was really high on never got to hunt with her, If she was as good as some I hunted with, know why he was high on her. And no color was not something they fretted over. Fact is some of those sure showed bluetict or english breeding. Some were not much to look at but believe any houndman that was not color blind would have respect for those after spend time with them in the woods. They could be hard to break but I believe that would have been no problem with the modern equipment today. Thanks Al

Very good information on all fronts, I appreciate all the input. What CJC said sounds like a damn good plan to go from if a fella decides to line breed. Unfortunately CJC most of those you have named hunt a very different style than needed here, but I have got the concept. I would be better suited finding a local or someone from idaho who hunts similar(snow). (not saying those guys don't have good dogs, just a very different game there and would be hard for me to gauge a dog) and I would love to hunt with them all aside the fact its different than my own area.

One question again. Now would it be better to outcross those unknown ancestry dogs, until you knew the blood behind them a few generations and then start your linebreeding crosses or take that crap shoot early as possible? I know this is time consuming, but its not the quickest way to the finish line that always wins.

C. John Clay: Some question and thoughts. Your dad has been very successful in breeding his dogs and it is common to breed tight to produce a type of dog. The only time I tried it I culled the hole litter, when I bred the same dog to a distance related dog of same type it worked well. I know I am a hard judge of dogs I have only owned one that I thought was good enough to reproduce a copy of her. Which is what I wanted to do when I bred her to her son. As I understand it by breeding father to daughter or mother to son again and again you could accomplish this. My question is if you are trying to make the perfect Bobcat dog can you do it without the perfect dog to start with you can only produce what you have. I feel there is not a perfect dog out there that could not be improved on so how do you get to that dog to start your reproduction of the perfect bobcat dog? I have been trying to combine traits of different types of dogs to get what I feel is what I want in a bobcat dog. As I said early I have several closely related dogs that are showing the traits that I am looking for. Now I plan to breed the ones to compliment each other wanting the dog from that cross that fits what I am looking for. Then I have the dog that I will inbreed to reproduce a Type. I was around Charlie Tant's dogs and seen pictures of his dogs from the early 50's up they all looked the same and hunted the same. You out cross one and it still was like a Tant dog the first cross. I never got to meet Charlie but did hunt and meet two persons that hunted and breed dogs with him. They said that Charlie line bred three times then brought a Goodman Walker out of Texas to cross on then line bred three generations again. Just some thoughts on breeding, I don't have the time and knowledge your dad has put into his dogs and look for a little different type of dog out here for this area then what your dad has bred for his area. What did your dad start with did he have that great dog to start with or did it take a while to find one or did he breed it up? I have seen your mention of some of the top dogs that your dad bred from. What was before them and how did he get to the starting place as to what he wanted to copy? Dewey

Unreal_tk,

Sorry about the bad tip as per your locations. You know these Ole States we live in are so big and diverse that it truly is a different Game for each Eco-System. Glad you understood the point. Go hunt with those in your area who geterdone!

Now the question about where to start, if the two you like the best are related great, this will put you further along with Genetic Consistency; but if not your X2 will get you started, but with more culling and decisions to make along the way as to who to go forward with.

Always use PERFORMANCE as the #1 criterion in breeding.

Now Mr. Dewey….as far as I know there ain’t never been a PERFECT Bobcat Hound….anywhere!

As I have written before in 1965 Dad realized he was not going to be able to buy the Greyfox dogs he had been turning into Bobcat Hounds anymore. He then went to work studying the Hounds he liked the best and the men who raised them. The Fox Hounds that Mr. Hinkle Schillings had bred, hunted, and competed with best fit what he liked. Mr. Hinkle had bred Ch. Mark S. by line breeding back to his outstanding Hound, Dawson’s Stride (who was a line bred back to Hub Dawson 406, who was in fact line bred back to Scott # 7; this takes the line back to the late 1880s). Mark’s Dad, Hedges Tom Crowe went back to Hub Dawson several times on both sides.


Now by the mid-60s Mr. Hinkle had gotten up in age, was selling more Pups & Hounds than he was Hunting, so Dad went looking for Hounds that were being hunted hard and closely carrying Ch. Mark S. He found an own son who was out of a Stride S. (Mark S.’s maternal Grand sire) bitch. He bred him to a bitch with Mark appearing 5 times in 3 generations. Now both of these, Raider Rivers and Cry Baby, were outstanding Hounds 1st…..Bred right second, which is why they were the foundation for Dad’s program…..but others had laid the foundation going back to the 1880s!

Each Cross made is trying to fill holes in Hounds in the next Generation. Honestly Evaluating the Hound and be willing to not let emotions set a program back is sometimes tough.

With a line breeding program that is several generations in, Genetic Consistency will yield litters with Performance Consistency. With Dad’s Hounds this means all worth feeding… some better than others…..an occasional Special Hound….but alas…no PERFECT Hound…..yet!

CJC. I've hunted for years looking for the cross and i just got it. Fred Wall , Rocksprings Tx. has a Male hound that as complete all around cat dog that i have hunted with in 30 yrs. He let me cross him on a little dog that was cat crazy. 7 pups later they were all making at dogs. I'm going to take a female from this litter and go back to the father dog for one more cross. The 7 pups are spread out in Tx,Mexico,Kansas. And OK. will get some of this crosses soon.This don't mean any thing unless you are a bobcat hunter. Thanks Ed.

Dewwy good to read your knowledge of the Charlie Tant bred dogs. No one ever mentioned about the running dog in them. I never got to hunt with that tant female, she was just an old female than ran loose and went hunting on her own when she desired. I recall that she was not suppose to have been much of a tree dog but most of those dogs out of her & that k. o. dog that I hunted with were good tree dogs and seldom got an empty tree. After I hunted with the daughter of finley river chief. I had to wonder if that old male was from finley river lineage. After aging a little also wonder if that old male might have been the true reproducer. Was told that the old female was bred to a heck of a male that George owned and the offspring was not as good as when she was crossed on the K. O. MALE. Never hunted with any of those just hear say. Thanks Al

My opinion is that it is equally difficult to get well breed pups in to the hands of good dog trainer’s hands, as it is to get the genetics together.

The mistake is not having dedicated hunter/s evaluating the prospects. The perfect cat dog may have come and gone never to be hunted or culled to early.

I am no breeder nor do I wish to become one. I hunt 4 dogs none that are out of the same breeding or the same color. Truth is I do not have a dog that I would not part with at this time. I’m looking for that well rounded cat dog line from the breeder who has not let his ego blind him and has actually learned from his mistakes. I paid good money for FAD dogs out of “proven crosses” just to cull them. As a hunter that is one of many lessons I’ve learned.

Don

Don: I have look and tried dogs from a lot of people through the years and that is why I breed to get the type of dogs that work for me. Either way you go it is a learning process. Dewey

I am with dewey on this, I would rather produce a dog I like. Rather than hoping to find one from someone else. You could be wasting alot of time and money on a dog you will not like. So far I have been lucky.

Unreal_tk wrote: You could be wasting alot of time and money on a dog you will not like.

Like wise....Breeding is no cheap quick fix.

Don

Breeding is not cheap quick fix. It does take time and money with failures. Buying pups takes time and money with failures. So what does one do? It seem like you have to spend the time and money either way you go? So you spend the time and money or you hunt with dogs you do not like and that don't get the job done? It seems like you have to do one or the other or you are dissatisfied with what you are doing. That does not seem very productive to me. To be successful one has to be in action, being in action one will make mistakes but isn't that a learning cure that gets you closer to what you are to what you want. It seems someone said something that like, living is a journey. The journey is what I enjoy, I not sure what the end looks like but I think I can wait a few more years to get there. Each to their own path or better said MAY THERE BE A ROAD. Dewey

Unreal_tk,

Here is a Quote from one of the Hound/Dog long winded Breeding Articles...I think the Brackett Article.

If there is only one thing to take from this Topic....and there are several....but if you can only file one away in the memory banks....this is it!

"The secret is that all linebreedings must be made on a combination of performance, appearance and ancestry. If a Breeder is going to be successful in solidifying a certain trait they must rigorously select breeding specimens which display the desired trait and have similar pedigrees. In so doing Breeders have a chance of making this desired trait homozygous over time. This is the one key to successful linebreeding that is most often missed by unsuccessful Breeders."

I believe in addition to selecting breeding specimens that display the desired trait with similar pedigrees. The single most made mistake. Is the lack of research of siblings, mom and dads, and grandparents. As just having the pair intended to breed having the trait that you need. Will leave you with an empty sack, if the planned mating pairs are one time wonders. Without any noticeable preferred traits in their family tree. What is needed to be remembered, is this is not a miracle solution. It is normally well thought out and planned by people who are fortunate enough to have time, time, time, and years, years, years.

Take care, Willy

Maybe my point was missed.

Even if you get all the breeding right the pups need to be placed in the hands of an experienced trainer(s) who can push a prospect to its potential.

Sorry bout that....

Don