Mistakes in making a cross.

[Unreal_tk]

Now then, reading Gary Robersons post in the coon section has had some great information brought up, this hopefully will bring more to the table.

I am a new and just starting out with my own pack. My pack I want to remain small, but hopefully raise my litters from now on to sustain myself rather than taking a crap shoot if the parents even hunt.

My question is, what mistakes in making crosses have you had? And what would you of done different?

[slowandeasy]

Unreal, I would say that in trying to be honest, the mistake that I made and probably many. Is to not start out with the first few hounds that you own being closely related from a family that has shown considerable success. Not that this is a terrible mistake but it just adds a tremendous amount of time to be able to reach any kind of repeatable success. However if a person chooses to start out with two hounds that they are very well pleased with of unrelated ancestors, and build from there which is what we did it just takes much longer.

If I were to have known 35 years ago what I do now. I definitely would have started out with related hounds that had highly successful ancestors behind them. But back then I was determined to start my own line of hounds. In my opinion, a big mistake if top hounds are your main goal only.

Which leads me to the following mistakes that no one should make. This is a quote from Finney Clay:"When a Houndsman starts to let Color rather than Performance influence his Breeding decisions not only has his quality of Hounds headed down hill his Integrity has as well" This is a Hot off the Presses quote from Dad!

I would also like to add to that, that any time you have made a conscious decision to raise hounds for money. The quality of your hounds and your integrity will also head downhill. You will be much further ahead trying to place your puppies in the hands of people that are hard hunters and ruthless as to the performance they will accept from a hound. This will be easier said then done.

I think the biggest mistake that most people make. Is to become completely kennel blind. People naturally get attached to their hounds, and tend to not see the weaknesses in them. There's nothing wrong with this if the hound or hounds satisfy their owner. But this type of person should not undertake the chore of trying to breed successful hounds.

The other big mistake is honesty honesty honesty honesty. With one's self! Also cull, cull, cull, cull, it is the thing that is what no one enjoys. But if a person is not willing, again do not undertake the chore of trying to breed successful hounds. I'm sure there are other things that I've probably left out. But it's a starting point.

Take care, Willy

[Big N' Blue]

Damn Willy!!!!!!!! Too bad we do not have enough years left to get it right this time around!
You gave good advice! Take care! And Good luck Unreal!!

[dwalton]

Willy well said. To bad it takes years for most people to get this. Dewey

[twist]

Be ready to comitt your self for many years this just doesnt happen over night and remember every pup doesnt turn out culling is a big part in getting to where you can be satisfied with the outcome. slowandeasy said it very well. Andy

[Jmac25]

Willy,

In your opinion how closely related would your foundation stock have been? I mean we are talking about breeding in the same strain for years would it be better to start with a close half brother half sister cross or a little more distant cousin to cousin cross? Your post is very informative. I am also wanting to breed my own hounds. It takes so long to know what you got when you are breeding for performance that it would be outstanding to learn from others to save time.
Thanks!

[slowandeasy]

Jmac, to answer your question correctly, I believe is almost as hard as coming up with all of the right answers all of the time. As for my feelings my beliefs, and how I see things through my eyes. And really, that is all it will be. Because there will be just as many feelings and beliefs and how others see it through their eyes. As there will be people that read this.

As for how close I would start. In a perfect world I would love to be able to put my hands on littermates that were already everything and I would look for in a hound. In other words, not just a pair of pups that are littermates. Two that were tiptop, and what little flaws that they did have I could live with. And that is where my first litter would come from.

However although my or anyone's intentions may be good. When trying to utilize the shortcut of starting with successful hounds that are closely related. With out ever hunting and actually seen the relatives from previous generations. You will often have to take someone's word as to how good they were. And all too often unfortunately that doesn't go very well. In this scenario is often the route many have to take. But I believe it's still better than just blindly going with two completely unrelated parents.

Now the above is probably the way a high percentage of people will be forced to start. And you will probably believe that you have a large selection to choose from. But in reality the type of dogs that we are talking about are usually tied up in pretty tight circles. And More than likely have homes way before a new comer ever knew that they changed hands. This is true for both broke dogs, and puppies.

So as you can see a person either makes a complete outcross, or the first scenario above. And that is why I think that there is such a low percentage in pups that make the grade. Anyway as far as how close I guess it just plain depends how much you can trust the person that's telling you what's behind them. Or if you are fortunate enough to meet somebody going down the road that steers something from one of those tight circles in your direction.

Whatever you do! There are plenty out there that catch plenty of game, and also have quite a name built up for themselves based on catching game. Who's breeding programs hold water like a spaghetti strainer. So you also have to be on the lookout for that also!!

Again, these are only my beliefs. And may not be worth the paper that they are written on. But being that I try and make it fun, it's all that really matters to me. And hopefully you'll feel the same, whatever way you choose to go.

Take care and good luck, Willy

[Unreal_tk]

Good information, maybe Cobalt will ring in on this. I don't want to stir anything, but multiple views will help a new guy. Willy, let's say you were that beginning who has little to no clue about the dogs or breeding (even if the guy said). You raise two pups up, both are dogs that make the grade. Would you still do the same, or wait until you were sure about the foundation behind another set?

[slowandeasy]

Unreal,

I'm not really sure if I'm understanding what you're saying. I believe you saying that you have two that really turn out real good that are unrelated? I guess it's just completely up to you. As I said in the first post, that is the way I started. But again, I was in my early 20s and thought I had something to prove. And dad, he didn't care one way or another as he had been interested in genetics and breeding probably since he was in his 20s.

You could want go down that road, for your own personal satisfaction. Just always keep in mind, it could take a lot more time and a lot more culling. But it sure is a challenge, that a person can be proud of if you have any amount of success at it.

Now if you are talking about just continuing to breed unrelated hounds. And try and only breed the best to the best, I don't really believe that holds much water. And the only answer that I can give you to back this up. Is just simple supply and demand. Haphazard breeding seems to be what normally takes place, hopefully by people that think they are breeding the best of the best. And if this were highly successful I really don't think that a person could get very much monetary value for a broke dog as there would be plenty of them.

I sure hope that I answered your question. Again it's only how I feel and don't amount to a whole lot. I do know one thing, I still think they were pretty good looking dogs that you had an pretty nice country to hunt in.

Take care, Willy

[Unreal_tk]

Basicly, would you use dogs, you have no background on but are darn good ones to start. Or would you wait it out, until you had some that you know the background several generations but would take years before you had this knowledge?

Thanks for the comment about the dogs and country. I will try to find some other pictures to pm you.

[dwalton]

Willy: I have been following what you wrote on breeding and we have talked about it between ourselves. Here some thoughts that I have had. Line breeding and inbreeding does accomplish what we want to produce a outstanding dog. I have read everything that I could get my hands from the '60s up on breeding. There has been a lot of work breeding coon and big game hounds very little except for a few breeders on bobcat dogs which is what I am interested in. Some running dogs and some tree dogs make great bobcat dogs but for me they don't have all that I am looking for. The great things about both one needs for a top bobcat dog. In the past I tried inbreeding and it did not work. I did not have enough dogs to choose from with what I wanted that were closely related. A lot of my success with cat dogs is my ability to train, what I have not what I want in a dog. I see what i want in a bobcat dog in three types of dogs the old Finley River, leopard and the running dog. Each type has a outstanding thing that they bring to being a top bobcat dog. AS you said today a big key is two closely related dogs that both have what you are looking for. This is the hard part when breeding unrelated dog with different traits trying to get the best of both worlds. I have been breeding the outcross trying to get the perfect bobcat dog. I have had good luck with this and all 18 dogs that I have are related. Now I feel I will start breeding related dogs with the traits I want to start producing a type of dog. With culling and luck we will see what happens. Time is the only true limiting factor. Willy I am looking forward to hunting with you next March and picking your brain on breeding you have put a lot of thought into it. Dewey

[kickemall]

One of the things that I've found is that if you want good cat dogs then you need to breed good cat dogs together (or bear dogs, or coon dogs, or whatever your hunting). I've seen to many times a guy has an outstanding bear dog and breeds it to an outstanding cat dog and doesn't get either or the pups throw to one side or the other. Along those same lines, if your trying to compensate for faults, like tight or loose mouth for example. What I've seen is by breeding a tight mouth dog to a loose mouth dog the pups will throw towards one parent and not somewhere in the middle. Or if your breeding those same dogs because they're both good dogs but you like open mouth dogs, some of the pups are going to be tight mouth. Same with breeding light tree dogs to hard tree dogs, some of the pups will tree good and some won't. Good luck.

[twist]

Here is my suggestion to the young guys that are just getting started do not have pups. You are just learning the sport who knows in a year you may decide to get out of the sport. Its not that easy getting a strain of dogs that are highly succsessful in the hunting program let alone the reprooducing end. Once you have committed to the hounds for quit a few years them (maybe) think about the breeding plan. Most new comers dont have the experiance or knowledge to start BREEDING DOGS focus on making one good hound and learn from miles of hunting. Dont worry about making pups worry about making ONE good consistant hunting dog that catches you game. Hope this does not tick anyone off as it is ment to help you young hunters. Andy

[slowandeasy]

Unreal: if you already own them, I guess I most certainly would use them. As long as you're willing to do the hard work that comes along with it. And from your PMs I believe you will. And understand that unless you are one of the few that has the luxury of letting a whole litter of puppies run loose to make your evaluation easier. You are going to be looking for some pretty competent friends to farm puppies out to.

One thing you will have to remind yourself of. Is that if you don't know any of the relatives in there pedigree. And for whatever reason, I have no idea why but i have noticed that when you are line breeding. For some strange reason the grandparents are very often what I would call the target animals. So if some of that along the line is undesirable, you will have to put up with it a little bit until the desirables become grandparents. This is the same reason that you can't breed for paper. Although you could get lucky sometimes and produce some good dogs in the beginning breeding for just what's on the paper. If the ones that you are breeding are not desirable they soon become the grandparents.

Dewy: what you explained is just something that you have to do when everything that you are trying appears to be lacking. Like I said to you when we talked, I keep bringing up dogs from 25 to 30 years ago as examples of what should be able to catch a Bobcat. And in reality I probably am right, because a lot of the running dog blood was much closer back then. And although we speak of the same strains today, much water has gone under the bridge. And there is probably a lot more emphasis on treeing now a days. I'm sure when you start to tighten it up a little bit, you will get what you are looking for.

I am too looking forward to March. I am sure that a good time will be had.

Take care, Willy

[Dads dogboy]

Unreal_TK,

Very good advice is coming to you here on this thread and on the several other Breeding threads in several different sections.

Now here is some more advise that is worth just what it will cost you….$0.00!

You all in Oregon face a specific set of Challenges with consistently successfully ending a Bobcat chase. From what I read and hear there are several Houndsmen/Hunters who are successful both CATCHING Bobcat and Breeding Hounds that do it…..some darn sure are not on this Computer.

Before getting too far into your breeding program, INVEST the time to go Hunt with Tom Barnes, Al Baldwin, JC Padgett, Dewey Walton and others. Watch how their Hounds play the Game….all will be different in Style and reflect how their Owners/Handlers want the Game Played. When you find Hounds & Handler who do it in the manner closest to how you would like to do it, MINE that resource for all the KNOWLEDGE as to the Hounds and Skills that you can.

Now this Hunter that you fit the best with (this may take some work as the best are generally reclusive and blunt) will have a top Male or Female who you really like…it has probably been mated to another to Hound (X1). Study the two Parents as to how their Siblings performed….if their brothers and sisters are/were nice Hounds great…if the Parents share some common ancestry even better. Now take a hard look at this litter….how is the litter performing…if all are making usable Hounds….you are heading in the right direction.

If you make it this far go back to the Parents, which of the two fits what you want the best. Once this determination has been made, try to acquire a young Hound (X2) from that mating that is the opposite Sex from the Parent you most like. Now make arrangements to breed the young Hound back to its Parent (X3).

You are now on your way to developing a Strain of Hounds that suit your particular location and style! You now have the options of breeding the sibs in X3 to each other or reaching up to X2 and breeding to Aunts & Uncles.

This is the Formula that several GOOD Strains of Hounds have evolved from.

Good Luck!