How important is a kill in making a good bear dog?

[mike martell]

WOW WE HAVE SEVERAL ANGLES GOING.SMILEY IS ON THE POINT HERE.FIRST OFF A HUGE BEAR GENERALLY IS FAIRLY SLOW. ALLOWING DOGS TO GET IN AND GET OUT. THIS ALONE WILL RAMP UP A PACK. KIND OF LIKE FIGHTING THE REAL FAT GUY, YOU CAN PUNCH HIM SEVERAL TIMES THAN TAKE OFF RUNNING... THE REAL DEAL IS THE 90-150 POUND BEAR THAT IS ATHLETIC.THE ONE THAT CAN CATCH YOUR DOGS ON THE GROUND.EVER NOTICE HOW WELL THE DOGS ARE WORKING WHEN YOU WALK IN QUIETLY AND OBSERVE THEM, AS SOON AS THEY SEE DAD WITH THE GUN THEY GET THAT EXTRA FIRE POWER AS IF TO SAY DAD'S HERE WITH THE FIRE POWER.NOW ITS KADEY BAR THE DOOR TIME- SHIT IS REALLY GOING TO HIT THE FAN NOW.THAT IS WHAT YOUR DOG IS THINKING. A NEW KAMAKAZIE SIDE SUDDENLY APPEARS FROM NOWHERE. THIS HAPPENS TO BE THE TIME YOU MOST LIKELY WILL HAVE A DOG GET INJURED. JUST THE SAME WITH AFTER A BEAR HAS BEEN SHOT OUT AND NOT DEAD. THAT IS WHY I NEVER ALLOWED GAME TO BE SHOT OUT UNLESS THE DOGS WERE TIED BACK OR HAVE THE UTMOST CONFIDENCE IN WHO HAD THE GUN. THE ABOVE ANALOGY APPLIES TO 99% OF ALL BEAR PACKS THE OTHER 1% DONT NEED YOU AROUND TO MOTIVATE THERE BAYING/ CATCHING BEHAVIOR. SO AS THE DUST SETTLES. YOU CAN SAY KILLING DOES HELP. BUT JUST HOW MUCH? I KNEW A GUY IF HE WAS NOT KILLING HE WAS NOT CATCHING....TIME FOR DIFFERENT DOGS. MOST GREAT BEAR DOGS ONLY COME ALONG ONCE IN AWILE. THE CHALLENGE IS WHERE IT IS AT, WHEN YOU HAVE THE REAL TOP SHELF TYPES, CATCHING GETS OLD.

[Eric Muff]

LIKE MOST HOUNDSMEN I ENJOY CATCHING JUST ABOUT ANY KINDA CREATURE FROM BOBS TO COUGARS AND BEARS,ALL HAVE THEIR MOMENTS BUT TO ME THE MEAT OF ALL HUNTS IS BEAR HUNTING.WITHOUT A DOUBT HARVESTING A BEAR ON THE GROUND IS THE ULTIMATE HUNTING EXPERIENCE BETWEEN DOG AND HANDLER.MANY FOLKS WHO HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED THIS SIDE OF BEAR HUNTING CAN NOT UNDERSTAND IT'S SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE TO THE PACK,YOU INCLUDED.
WHILE OUTFITTING FOR BEAR MOST CLIENTS HARVEST BEARS OUTTA TREES BECAUSE IT IS OFTEN TIMES THE ONLY TIME A HUNTER CAN GET THERE IN TIME AND IS A SITUATION THAT THE GUIDE CAN CONTROL.TAKING A BEAR ON THE GROUND REQUIRES A COOL HAND AND AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE AT THE SHOT.A GREAT MANY GUIDED HUNTERS WILL NEVER SEE THIS OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT POSSES THESE TOOLS OR THE ABILITY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN BEFORE THE SHOT DUE TO LACK OF PHYSICAL CAPABILITIES.
WHEN KILLING BEARS ON THE GROUND YOU MUST SHOOT AT A TIME WHEN YOU CAN BE THE FIRST TO REACH THE BEAR AFTER SHOOTING AND NOT LET THE DOGS GET THERE FIRST.GUARANTEED YOUR BEST DOG WILL BE THE FIRST MUTT IN THERE AND THE FIRST ONE HARMED BY A WOUNDED BEAR.....MAKE YOUR SHOT COUNT!
SHOOTING A BEAR ON THE GROUND IS THE ULTIMATE TO ME DESPITE THE FACT THAT I LOVE THE SIGHT OF A GOOD TOM IN THE TREE OR ANY OTHER GAME FOR THAT MATTER,GROUND BEARS ARE JUST ON ANOTHER LEVEL FOR YOU AND YOUR DOG AND THE DOG KNOWS IT.
DURING OUR LAST SPRING BEAR SEASON WE HARVESTED A GRIZZLY BEAR ON THE GROUND AFTER TWO DAYS OF HARD RUNNING AND NONSTOP BAYUPS.THE CREW TO A MAN AND A DOG KNEW WHAT THAT ACCOMPLISHMENT HELD IN SIGNIFICANCE TO HOUND HUNTING AND THE HUNT.YOU CAN'T BUY THAT IN A DOG..HE NEEDS THE KILL.

[Catch]

DURING OUR LAST SPRING BEAR SEASON WE HARVESTED A GRIZZLY BEAR ON THE GROUND AFTER TWO DAYS OF HARD RUNNING AND NONSTOP BAYUPS.

I guess I'm going have to hunt Grizzlies.

I have shot only one bear on the ground, I don't like it and never will. If you want good dogs killed or badly hurt this is a good practice. I don't know about all the dogs you guys hunt but when the hammer drops the dogs pile the bear. A second shot is not likely and a one shot kill that kills the bear dead is not likely. A wounded bear can kill a dog in a flash and it is not worth the chance to me. I try to stay with the best rule, turn loose and walk to the tree.

[Smiley]

You will learn more from a bear on the ground and getting up close and personel with it and not just about your dogs but about yourself. I only had one this year but it was the longest on in one area I have ever seen withought loosing site of the fight.
I do believe ankle is right if you are consistantly on bayed rough bears and leave the dogs to hang you will loose some of what they are .
Just remember that a bear if it really wants to ( after a certain size on the bear ) will win a fight on the ground and the dogs will learn that but if they suspect that any moment ole boss is going to be there to help they will keep going with all they got for a longer period.
this is a general there are dogs that do not need this but most will benifit greatly from this.

[Outlaw 3]

I like to knock out a bear on a pups first tree to reinforce the instinct.

I agree. There is nothing like taking a fighting bear on the ground.
I have seen my hounds seem to increase their grit when baying if they are expecting you to show up and end it at any time. Usually the grittier they are when baying results in treeing more bear. The only way the chase should end is on the handlers terms not on the dogs. They should not stop until I drag them away from the tree or off the top of a harvested bear. When a bear wont tree my dogs know it is easier on them if they don't quit because I will be there eventually to get them. If they quit they can find there own way out of the brush. If they stick to it they will be rewarded.

[Ankle Express]

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[loaded4bear]

good replys! I notice my dogs catch alot more bear in season than while training. ( tree 10 to 20 in season 5 to 10 in 6 month of weekend training) The temperature is cooler I know but this has puzzled me for five or six years. Ever year I think I have bear dogs but next spring I get out run again. Anyone got this one covered

[Travis Stirek]

Re-read this thread Mr. Martell. ...... We’re not comparing apples to apples here anyway though. Mr. Martell doesn’t even have a kill season for bear over hounds anymore anyway. Just speaking for myself but I wouldn’t be turning my hounds loose out there much under those circumstances and that’s the difference here to me. Or maybe I would but I’d become a full blown outlaw at some point, I’m sure of that.

Yea Mike you can't possibly know what your talking about!This is funny right here!

[mike martell]

BOY THIS IS GOOD STUFF HERE. FIRST OF ALL I HAVE NOT RUN BEAR IN OREGON SINCE THE 1994 BAN. WHAT I BASE MY INFORMATION ON IS A LIFE TIME OF CATCHING BLACK BEARS. I STILL HUNT OUT OF STATE AS WELL AS CANADA. HAVING TREED WELL OVER 1000 CAREER BEAR AND HARVESTING OVER 300. MOST BEING EITHER TIMBER COMPANY PERMITS OR AGRICULTURE PERMITS. AUTHORIZED BY FISH AND WILDLIFE. YES THE FISH COPS KNOW THIS.AVERAGE 20-25 DAMAGE BEARS 20-30 CATCH AND RELEASED ANNUALLY. SO WHEN I REFER TO BEAR DOGS I'M REFERENCING BEAR DOGS OREGON COAST BRUSH. NOT COON DOGS. HAVING TO SHOOT ALL THE BEARS OUT FOR A HOUND TO KEEP THEM MOTIVATED TO CATCH FOR YOU. MEANS YOU NEED BEAR DOGS . I MENTIONED HUGE BIG BEARS EARLIER. THEY HAPPEN TO BE THE EASIEST FOR A HOUND TO BAY AS BEING BIG THEY ARE WAY SLOWER THAN SAY A SOW. THIS I WITNESSED HUNDREDS OF TIMES SPANNING OVER SEVERAL DECADES. THE BIG BEAR AS STATED BY ANKLE EXPRESS ARE NOT QUICK AND ADJILE. HE STATES SAVING ENERGY. HELL THEY ARE JUST LIKE A BIG FAT GUY AND DON'T HAVE ENERGY. AS FOR THE SMALL SOW LYING DOWN AND POUNCING ON A DOG? MAYBE TRY FLAT OUT AMBUSHING A PACK OF HOUNDS? I ONCE SAW A COYOTE LAY DOWN IN A FIELD AND POUNCE ON A MOUSE THOUGH. NEVER WITNESSED A SOW DO THAT .AND THIS CRAP ABOUT CATCHING A HOUND WITH ONE HAND AND SHOOTING A BEAR WITH THE OTHER? FOR DECADES WE HAD A TRAINING SEASON IN OREGON THAT MEANT YOU COULD NOT HAVE A FIRE ARM IN YOUR POSESSION IN THE FIELD. WE CONVINCED FISH AND GAME WE DIDN'T NEED TO SHOOT THE BEAR TO REMOVE OUR HOUNDS WITHOUT HARMING THE BEAR EITHER BAYED SOLID OR TREED. EVEN THOUGH WE DIDN'T SHOOT ANY BEARS ,GUESS WHAT WE STILL CAUGHT BEARS. AS FOR A CLIENT? ANY TOP HOUNDMAN THAT WOULD NOT SECURE ANY SITUATION BEFORE ALLOWING A PILGRIM A SHOT AT A BEAR IS NO PROFESSIONAL AT ALL.BUT HEY MOST GUYS HERE HAVE BEEN AT THIS GAME LONGER THAN I HAVE AND TREED WAY MORE BEAR. SO MAYBE IF I LIVE LONG ENOUGH I TOO WILL GET THE CHANCE TO SEE A COUPLE BEARS POUNCING AROUND IN THE WOODS ON SOME TOP BEAR DOGS?YEAH TRAVIS THIS IS FUNNY STUFF HERE.

[Outlaw 3]

I notice my dogs catch alot more bear in season than while training.
Your dogs probably like everyone elses get fat and lazy during the off season. If they don't get fat then their feet get softer and lungs weaker. When a bear comes out from his den in the spring he is lean and mean due to a starvation diet over the late winter. As the seasons pass the bear eats everything he or she can get ahold of to prepare for the winter. Your hounds get in better shape and also gain experience with every time out. By the end of the season they are in excellent shape and the bears are fat and ready for a long nap.

[Nolte]

All I know is what I've seen in WI. When fall comes the runs get shorter and the bear are easier to tree. In contrast the cold trails get longer and tougher to unravel.

I agree that most big bear are slower to move than smaller ones, but that doesn't mean a dog can't get clipped by big one. I'd say that a higher percentage of big bear have the attitude to NOT tree. They are the stud duck of the woods and don't take much crap from ANY critter. Others are big sallies that fly up the first tree after a hound barks. They might not be able to get ahold of a dog as easy as a little one, but if they do it's got the makings of being UGLY.

Our worst bear this year was a little 150lb boar that seemed to be pissed off at the world. You could ship dogs in and he'd probably ship some back out. Others would hang good until he got a big enough piece of them and then they'd start lagging behind. Once we caught a few of the "better" bay dogs the others didn't have the same gusto. It was an all day caught session and we could have killed the bear at dozens of different opportunities.

The toughest bear to kill in my opinion on a jumped race, are the ones that only bay UNTIL you ALMOST get there. Then they bust out go a half to 3/4 of a mile and repeat. It's always in some of the biggest $hitholes they can find.

[Ankle Express]

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[Ankle Express]

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[plottsrus]

The best way I found to fire up a dog is for the bear to be alive and a jumper when they come out of the tree a couple of times and retree that does a dog more good then any kills

[Ike]

How important is the kill? Will a dog ever be a top notch bear dog without ever getting a kill. Will a dog have more desire and grit after a kill. How many kills do they need? Do they need a kill every year? Or, is the few minutes that a dog gets to bite a dead bear of little or no importants. It's such a small part of the over all hunt. Isn't it the excitement of the chase that really makes a bear dog? What's your opinion?

A good bear dog that has alot of drive and grit can always get a chew on a live bear, and therefore killing one is more important to the hunter than the hound. I'll agree bayups on a lion are more rare and it does help the young dogs to get a chew on a dead lion, but if they are bear dogs they're gonna get a chew on that bear lots of times whether it's dead or alive.............

ike