How important is a kill in making a good bear dog?

[Treem]

How important is the kill? Will a dog ever be a top notch bear dog without ever getting a kill. Will a dog have more desire and grit after a kill. How many kills do they need? Do they need a kill every year? Or, is the few minutes that a dog gets to bite a dead bear of little or no importants. It's such a small part of the over all hunt. Isn't it the excitement of the chase that really makes a bear dog? What's your opinion?

[Hunter]

Had this conversation just this very morning. All the guys with the best dogs in the group says to get your dogs on as many kills as possible. Acouple others sayed only a couple should do it for a young dog just to "get the picture" they and they had pretty good dogs as well. Myself I like for my dogs to get some "chew" time in. As far as how many they need a year.... I haven't got a clue.

[onalimb]

I would be more inclined to knock one out if there were young dogs that had been treed for quite some time. I think it re-enforces the knowledge that I'll show up.

As far as needing to feed them one just because...........I tell a lot of the locals up here, "A BEARDOG WOULD RATHER CHEW LIVE FUR THAN DEAD FUR" and I sincerly believe that. So I really don't put a high priority on filling my tag, just getting them on bear, and not always turning the young ones in last, I want them to see it on the ground.

[mike martell]

MATTER OF OPINION. I THINK A DOG THAT STAYS MOTIVATED ONLY WHEN HAVING GAME PUT OUT TO IT SHOULD BE ELIMINATED .AS IF THE DRIVING FORCE IS KILLING YOU HAVE THE WRONG DOG REGARDLESS OF BREED. I START A YOUNG HOUND OUT WITH A FEW COONS OUT TO THEM ,.THAN ITS OFF TO THE WOODS TO RUN BEAR. I WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS VARY TOPIC WITH MY PARTNER IN B.C. CANADA. HE HAS SOME TOP BEAR DOGS. I ASKED HOW LONG IT WAS SINCE HE PUT A BEAR DOWN TO HIS DOGS, HE STATED ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.HIS OPINION IS THE SAME AS MINE, A LINE OF DOGS THAT ARE BRED FOR 50 PLUS YEARS TO HUNT BEAR SHOULD HUNT BEARS.THE REASON YOU HAVE TO MOTIVATE THE REST IS BECAUSE THEY AREN'T BEAR DOGS THEY ARE COON DOGS. TRYING TO BE BEAR DOGS. THIS IS MY OPINION BACKED UP BY ALMOST 40 YEARS OF HUNTING BIG GAME.

[Smiley]

My opinion is this , if the dog is running to catch its game then you really do not need things shot out to it it will catch bears on the ground and that will be enforcement enough dogs that run to tree well you can help up thier potential with a bear or 2 in the beginning. The old cliche' And one on the ground is better than 20 in the tree.
That being said most dogs will benifit getting some type of poitive reward from it's boss reinforcing what it thinks you want of it.

[pete richardson]

theres another tough question-

ive seen a kill or two seem to benefit some dogs-



i think that 1-2 kills a year is as good as twenty -
-i know i cant run a dead bear again-


what good is a bear dog ,, if you cant find a bear to run-?


we have a long kill season here- 2 1/2 months - the woods are fairly small compared to most places

would be easy to hurt the population-

bear are worth more to me alive than dead -- but i still like to give my dogs 1-2 kills a year-


i can understand guys with very short kill seasons putting the lead to them --




if you only shot adult males --- you wouldnt hurt population much

[STUNTMAN]

I Have a young Cur that has been on 12 bears, not one has been shot out to him though he has had a mouth full 6-7 times on bail-outs and catching them on the ground. I would love to shoot one out to him and will some time soon but I feel if I never did he wouldnt stop hitting the woods hard everytime he loves them

[onalimb]

I can tell a difference in their intensity after having one shot on the ground in front of them, and it has probably lead to dogs sticking in there a little longer on the next one, but I won't use killing bear as a training tool.

[Ankle Express]

All the difference in the world in my opinion. Treed bears don't make much difference. We don't kill many of them unless its somebodies first time. Dog or hunter. However we do try to kill everything that bucks up. Don’t leave dogs on mean bear. It doesn’t take many till a dog will back off. Eventually walk off and quit’em. Seem to stay a little less each time. May not even fool w/ a mean bear eventually if the only time they ever see your sorry a$$ is to lead them off a tree. Usually start quitting races right at the bed/jump off point well before you would be getting a chance to do any killing. Hunter gathers them up scratches his head guess they couldn’t start it and bounces off to try another. Your training them away from fighting a bear. Dogs will fight a bear harder and harder when they understand your coming and your coming to put on the hurt. Makes me mad to hear a bear chewing on my dogs. I know they won’t quit because they know I’m coming. Bear on the ground is why I’m there and I will do my job. We will probably all agree hounds make beautiful music but its so much sweeter to hear them dogs get another gear when they and that bear knows your getting close to the bay. That’s when the kill counts. Bear dogs won’t just chew around on a dead bear either. They’ll dick up a hide in a heartbeat and eat half the best part of a ham before you can realize it. Finding someone who’ll not quit and follow dogs all day just to end a bad deal because a bear is trying to kill their dogs is as tough to find as a rock star bear dog. Humm maybe there is a correlation here. Usually not much talk of it around these sites. Alot of trees yeah. Bears are trainable just like dogs and people. Some experienced bear sour out and get rough while others get sloppy easy. Climbing at the sound of a dog. We hunt for the ones that lay in the bed and wait on the dogs to get there if we’re talking kill season. The ones that have run most the dogs they’ve ever seen out of the woods and that’s where I measure up dogs and hunters.

[onalimb]

Good post, Ankle.

[Catch]

Hmmmmmm.

So Ankle, not sure if I understand. Are you saying if you don't kill the mean ones your dogs will stop running bear?

[Ankle Express]

Nope just saying there's a big difference in dogs being left on mean bear to quit, fallout or being picked off tracks than dogs that stick till somebody comes to turn this things motor off. Running is what you'll get instead of running to catch. The heart of a hunters pack is directly related to the heart of the hunter.
You won't kill them all even when trying either or at all when training. I like everybody else want bears around too. But its the mindset. Thats all. Get in there and try to get close. Heck I've seen alot of bear once somebody is behind them and gets them off their pattern, plan or out of an area go right up. Just like turning a bear back in a block it wants out of alot of times they'll tree pretty quick. All I'm saying is "YES" the dogs do need the mean ones when the time is right. As a generalization minus a few breeds dogs generally will/would shy away from repeated beatings/negative experiences w/out some type of positive reinforcement. Heck, you know its like a quarterback after a big game. Hes after the head cheerleader or prom queen, at least in his mind anyway. Sean Connery makes a similar statement to Nicolas Cage at the end of the movie "The Rock". Winners don't just win they go home w/ the prom queen too!

[Nolte]

I agree with Preston and Ankle.

I can easily see an extra gear, or intensity in the dogs when they know something might get shot to them. They seem to hunt harder and longer and you can really push them to the limit.

I agree that shooting a tougher bear on the ground, REALLY makes bear dogs. There is no substitute that is even close.

I also don't like to leave dogs "out to dry" on a mean bear. I've seen some really good young promising prospects, not get the right help in those situations and just never get to where they should have. It doesn't matter as much with an old veteran dog, but I still like to get them help as soon as I can. Sometimes it's just me getting in there and busting that bear out of his comfort zone. In training season we try to keep those bear that won't tree moving, the longer they stay in one spot the more likely it is that a dog is going to get it. In kill season we TRY to not break that bay and go in and finish it right quick. Granted it doesn't always happen like that.

It takes a damn good dog to stick on a really big bear by itself, and an even better one that can really grind a tough track to find that bear. Let me tell you those kind of dogs aren't like grapes, they sure don't come in bunches. Anyone who says they do is blowing a lot of smoke.

[Ankle Express]

Nolte is dead on point. Very well said. Put a couple on my tab for ya!

[Smiley]

Well there are so many variables on this but i will say this you do and can ghet more from most dogs by showing boss will come and help out you see the intensity level very easily when they know you are there and it is a big confidence to most dogs young ones especialy.