Dog going down

[Average Joe]

I have a 3 year old neutered male Bluetick about 75 lbs. He gets hunted about once or twice a week in Central Utah mountains , when not hunting he gets roaded about 6 to 10 miles 2 days a week. Feed schedule is once a day feeding Hunter’s Edge. The problem is starting this year after the spring bear hunts I had him at the house and let the dogs run around the pasture while I was feeding horses I looked over at him and he was breathing really hard he then started to stager and then went down. I put the other dogs away and came back thinking he might have been kicked and just got the air knocked out of him not the case. I ran to the house and got some Benadryl gave him about 6 cc thinking possible allergic reaction a couple min later he was up running. This has happened several times over the summer I thought it might be from a bee sting. I have had blood work come back and it was ok. I ran a bear on Fri. short race he was fine a couple hours after he went down again off and on for about 20 min. It rained for a couple hours Sun morning after it let up I cast a few dogs up a canyon, I saw him getting week in the back end so I stopped a couple min. later he went down again busted out the Benadryl he did it one more time that day. I have been thinking about it and I don’t think he is having an allergic reaction (No bee’s after the rain) I think I have had a false sense of security with the Benadryl, My thoughts are while I am giving the meds he is just having enough time to recover. The Vet is stumped. I am going to take him to the station and run an ECG tomorrow try and get a baseline and one with an elevated heart rate. The thing is when he gets up after a couple of min he wants to go hard. Him going down is not a consistent thing, but it seems to be getting more often. Any ideas?
I asked about a possible enlarged heart and the Vet doesn’t seem to think that as a possibility. Any thoughts or Ideas would be great.
Thanks, Joe

[Spokerider]

Well, you're on the right track.....

Number one, you have a vet involved! Good on you.

Your dog needs a comprehensive physical exam, labs drawn, results interpreted, and your vet needs accurate / detailed history from you about what the dog was doing before, during, and following an episode.

Details such as duration of event, wether it came on suddenly or was the dog showing signs that indicated something was amiss? How soon did the dog recover? Were the gums and tongue pale? bright red? Normal color? Did you test capillary refill on the gums during the event? Was the dog alert? or zoning out during the episode? Any signs of distress or pain? Was there respiratory distress. If so what? Any chance of mushrooms or anything toxic ingested? Something enviromental? Other dogs OK? Etc, etc.

Was it warm and humid out during the race.....could be heat exhaustion. Some dogs, like mine, don`t do well in warm and humid conditions.

Details like these will help him / her choose a direction in which to investigate, then begin ruling out systems / causes.

From the details that you have listed a cardiac issue could be suspect, heartworm, or pulmonary origin. An EKG and possibly echocardiogram may help rule out heart trouble.

You`re on the right track! Keep us posted and hang in there.

[Redwood Coonhounds]

That sounds exactly like what my young dog is doing. He's a 20 month old Walker male, 60 lbs. Been going through this since June. He has "episodes" like this after running. Never seems to do it roading, never coon hunting, never while treeing. He had one this weekend found him lying under a tree, and that is NOT him. He staggered the whole way out. Only difference in my dog and yours, is mine has a noticeable cough that seems to be getting worse... His isn't constant but getting worse as well. And once he recovers, he wants to go balls to the wall again. Even sick he's got killer heart...

I've done all the tests, xrays, medications and we're still stumped. Next step is an ultrasound of the heart and lungs.

We're thinking now MAYBE an allergy. Chronic Broncitis? I've spent close to $800 now. I'm getting very discouraged. I wouldn't mind spending the money on a cure. But that much money, and no closer to even knowing whats wrong, and if it's something he'll ever get over - very irritating.

I would just put him down, but I cannot repeat this cross, and it was a last chance deal. His littermates can't be bought. My biggest fear is he's going to have one of these in the wrong place, and die down in some canyon. I think leaving him stand on his chain will kill him almost as fast.

[Average Joe]

Thanks for the info Spokerider and Redwood for the info, I hooked him up to a Four lead EKG last night as I was hooking up the leads he started to get wobbly and I knew he was going to have an episode. During the episode he was very Tachycardic. It was tough to get a clean strip without a lot of artifact due to his shaking. He had a heart rate that jumped up and stayed between 250 and 300 BPM. Its duration was about 2.5 to 3 min. After it was done I let him walk around and he acted normal. Ran another EKG resting heart rate was within the normal limits and he had a Normal Sinus Rhythm. I will be talking to the Vet in the morning about drawing some blood tubes and running some more labs. Redwood I totally understand your frustration with this whole mess and not being able to replace the dog he is one of my go to start dogs when the others are having a tough time pushing an older track. I will keep you posted on any findings.

Thanks, Joe

[Spokerider]

Joe,
Good that you witnessed the event and got a EKG strip showing the arrhythmia. He HAS a cardiac condition. One would need to read the strip for sure, but it sounds like it could be SVT, [ supra ventricular tachicardia ] paroxysmal atrial fibrillation, or other. Your vet [ or another vet ] will be able to determine if the condition is atrial or ventricular, and provide direction for corresponding treatment.

What is happening is, the heart becomes a very inefficient pump during the "episode", or arrhythmia, and little blood gets to the brain. This causes the clinical signs that you see......the dog zones out [ decreased level of conciousness ], gets wobby legs in the rear first, with near or complete collapse to ground [ the brain shutting down function ]. This syncopal event reverses it's self when the arrhythmia stops and the heart once again returns to a normal rhythm, the dog recovers, gets up, and continues like nothing has happened.

Cassandra,
I'm sorry that you've not yet discovered the origin of your dog's condition. It must be quite frustrating for you.
Wondering.....what about palpating your dogs femoral artery [ this one is easy to find and palpate, but a brachial will work too if you're comfortable with locating it ] occasionally to get a feel for the pulse when the dog is at rest, semi-active, very active, etc. If your dog has an episode, you'll be able to instantly determine the heart rhythm [ or lack of it ] and feel when it returns to normal. Also, carrying a stethascope in your pack when out hunting [ or where ever ] and auscultating the heart for signs of irregular heart beat may be an option for you.
Like Joe's dog, I suspect a paroxysmal cardiac condition with your pooch too, from your reports. This would help confirm / rule out.

I went through similar with my first airedale........

[Wild Heritage]

Have you considered Seizures? When was the last time these dogs were vacinated prior to the first episode?

[driftwood blue]

Were these dogs given Ivomec for heartworms???
I have seen a couple of cases in hounds that had a lot of the same conditions... a switch to Interceptor eliminated it.
strange thing was most times those dogs had no problem for a few days after the monthly dosage... then it would re-appear

hope you find the cause

[Redwood Coonhounds]

Mine is given Heartgard Plus for heartworm (so yes, Ivermectin) the same he's been on his whole life.

He has a steady nasty cough at all times.

He's not having seizures, and he has a good heart. We just have to figure out what is causing the cough, as his shortness of breath is the reason for colapse.

Since it's rained and the dust has settled I have run him off and on, and 3 out of 4 runs he's had no problems. But now that it's colder the cough sounds deeper.

I want to say I'm seeing some improvement. I can't afford anything more, so I'm gonna see if it's something he'll get over himself.

[cobalt]

My sisters lab has similar episodes and so does a friends lab. They are both from good hunting/field trial lines. The diagnosis was 'exercise induced collapse'. When the dog is at normal or slightly elevated exercise all is normal, but when the dogs reach a higher level these same symptoms appear. It is not known what the cause is. It may be genetic, it may not. Hunters and fieldtrialers have a real problem with it because if the dog is swimming at the time of the episode they drown rather quickly. I've never heard of it in hounds, but you might contact their association for more info. My buddy who has the lab with this condition is a vet. There is a test for it.

[Wild Heritage]

http://www.vdl.umn.edu/ourservices/cani ... /home.html
here is a link to EIC "exercise induced collapse" it does sound like what you are describing you dog attacks. Interestingly that they are using Pheno as a treatment.

There are now numerous reports of severely affected dogs improving when they were treated with Phenobarbital (2 mg/kg every 12 hours or every 24 hours)

Pheno is used for treatment for seizures, and there are types of seziures called "focal or Partial" that does not present like your average full body muscle spasam type "Grand Mal"
Good Luck

[Average Joe]

Hey thanks for all the info. "Buck" has had 2 pretty violent episodes lately and I finally got it on film. Talked to the vet he said it is defiantly having seizures. The episodes didn’t look like classic seizures until these last 2. The last one he had he was in his kennel whimpering for a couple min. I grabbed my camera carried him in the house about 2 min later he had a big episode I rolled film on that one. I see a lot of people having seizures in my line of work but until last week he didn’t have a classic style seizure. Hind sight Buck I think has some preictal moments where he fills them coming on because he will usually bark once or twice before having an episode. I will try to figure out how to post the video sometime soon. Redwood Buck doesn’t ever cough hope that helps. If I can’t figure out how to post the video I can send a copy just PM me.
Thanks everyone for all the help, Average Joe

[Redwood Coonhounds]

I don't want to jinx myself but I believe mine is getting better. Like I said I've been running him, and even out of shape, he seems to be keeping up again and having that young dog zip. I noticed his cough had seemed to come to a real bad constant deep cough. I haven't heard him do it a few days. Last weekend I ran him two days, both good races, when I got him he was fine other than coughing some in the box after loading up.

I just got him back not an hour ago, hes been treed almost 12 hours down in the bottom of a canyon. I didn't notice him cough this morning before I turned loose, and he hasnt since he's got home.

Hopefully its something he's over. Maybe some sort of heat/dust/allergy thing? Now that the dust is down and its cooler temps.