An old Gascon or Blue line that traced to Almond Joy

[Mike Leonard]

Back in the early 1970's when I first got into hounds I spent a lot of time with an old trapper houndhunter who spent many years chasing cats and lion. He was an old time cowboy type who worked a lot for the state on problem animals.Well he had some big high tan type hounds and some blue dogs that he said were heavy in Lee Brothers and Vaughn breeding. I know one thing these dogs could catch cats on bare ground and they handled very well. He carried them most of the time in an old International Scout and they just jumped in 3-4 of them and laid in the back till he called them out. Well he had on particular hound he called Chock and this dog was larger and heavier headed than the rest. He was a bluetick of sorts but he had some darker brown on his fave and over his eyes than the usual tan of his regular blueticks. I asked him about this dog and he said in conversations with some of the Lee Brothers back in the 50 &60's he met a guy from back east who had some of their breeding of dogs. I don't recall the man's name but it seems to me the last name was somehting like Goodman. He said these dogs had really made a name for themselves back there as top bear dogs even though they came out of western breeding that had been used mostly for mountain lion. Anyway this Chock dog was the real deal. He had the heavy head and long ears and deep body of many of the gascons I saw later in the magazines. I asked him why he called this dog Chock and he said well that is for chocolate that color he has on his face and chest. He said it came from the line of dogs he was out of. I thought that was funny but he said these two brothers got these dogs from a famous big game hunter back east and their names were Peter and Paul. So just like the famous candy bars they called their stud dog Almond Joy. And this Chock dog came from their breeding. I thought that was really neat about the candy bars but didn't think much more about it. I remember this big dog was the real deal and he could unravel trails that some of the other dogs never knew excisted. Well old Leo bred this dog to a big
Vaughn female he had and got some pups but they were not registered as he said this big dog came out of stock that was not purely bluetick becasue this man from back east who had some of the Lee Brothers dogs had also crossed and excotic strain of bloodhound or trailhounds that had been imported from Europe.

I never thought much more about this even though I had one of the pups for a bit and called him Ruff because when he barked that is what it sounded like . Just a big deep ruff, ruff!. anyway after thinking back over all these years I would throw the Almond Joy's dogs name out there and see if any of you hunters ever heard about these dogs or those two brothers that raised them?

[lmorgan]

I asked him about this dog and he said in conversations with some of the Lee Brothers back in the 50 &60's he met a guy from back east who had some of their breeding of dogs. I don't recall the man's name but it seems to me the last name was somehting like Goodman. He said these dogs had really made a name for themselves back there as top bear dogs even though they came out of western breeding that had been used mostly for mountain lion.... I thought that was funny but he said these two brothers got these dogs from a famous big game hunter back east ...anyway after thinking back over all these years I would throw the Almond Joy's dogs name out there and see if any of you hunters ever heard about these dogs or those two brothers that raised them?

Mike,

Pretty interesting story. I've never heard of Almond Joy and I guess it would take a quirky sense of humor to come up with such a ridiculous name for a hound, but I've heard worse. Jimmy Martin, the "King of Bluegrass" was an avid coon, squirrel and rabbit hunter and he named all of his best hounds after country and bluegrass music stars. I don't guess naming one after a candy bar is that much of a stretch.

This is a pretty enticing mystery, though. You mentioned that this hound came from the breeding of a well known big game hunter back east that had dealings with the Lee Brothers AND that this strain of hound had connections to imported hounds from Europe. Now, I'll be the first to admit that I've been a bit hard on liontracker and MTH over posting documentation on their theories concerning Bill Green. BUT, considering the amount of information that they have posted in other threads, I don't have a choice but to agree with them that Bill Green had a much higher impact on the Bluetick/Gascon breed than I originally thought. Could it be that the "big game hunter back east" that you referred to could have possibly been Bill Green? Were those pictures of AJ indicative of the French GBG and GGS traits that Tim and Steve have posted of Bill's hounds? Very interesting information.

[liontracker]

Is this a litmus test...or a double blind?LOL

[Brady Davis]

Man, too bad these ol' boys didn't keep details records in well preserved journals eh?!

Very interesting story Mike, any pics?

Moral of the story...keep details written down fellas

[Mike Leonard]

I will dig back in some old boxes of photos and see if I have any of Chock or Ruff.

Back in the 110 instamatic days I had toms of photos and use to just throw them in a box. I have hunting albums stacked in a room that I hardly ever look at anymore. I use to wear my wife out when people would come and want to see all the photos over the years. I acvtually quit saving very many photos about 10 years ago or so. After a while a lion in a tree or a bear in the tree looks pretty much the same . But I usually do keep photos of the dogs to remember them by.


Leo has been dead many years and his wife passed on about 5 years ago and they had no children so I don't know what might have happend to any photos or records he had.


I rmember some years later Al Womack sent me photos of a dog he had called Jargo and that dog looked a lot like the Chock dog only Chock had more open spotting on him and like I said that rich brown color trim. I asked old Al about this dog and he said he thought the guy might have had some of the Ellison Blue Tige blood. I didn't know much about that but I had the Bill Harshman book (Big N Blue) and i knew about Bill Green from it. Al Womack said that most of the stuff in that book was fiction and that Harshman was pretty full of it. If I can find them I have a lot of old letters from Mel Farber and E. S. Traverse and we discussed a lot of the French influence back many years ago. Traverse seemed to know the French connection and Farber pretty much thought it was all made up. So who knows but Farber did say after i explained about the Chock dog that it might very well trace to Bill Green's dogs. He told me that Bill also had walkers and black and tans in his bear pack.

[lmorgan]

I rmember some years later Al Womack sent me photos of a dog he had called Jargo and that dog looked a lot like the Chock dog only Chock had more open spotting on him and like I said that rich brown color trim. I asked old Al about this dog and he said he thought the guy might have had some of the Ellison Blue Tige blood. I didn't know much about that but I had the Bill Harshman book (Big N Blue) and i knew about Bill Green from it. Al Womack said that most of the stuff in that book was fiction and that Harshman was pretty full of it. If I can find them I have a lot of old letters from Mel Farber and E. S. Traverse and we discussed a lot of the French influence back many years ago. Traverse seemed to know the French connection and Farber pretty much thought it was all made up. So who knows but Farber did say after i explained about the Chock dog that it might very well trace to Bill Green's dogs. He told me that Bill also had walkers and black and tans in his bear pack.

Mike,

I'd like to see some of those old Mel Farber letters. I've seen one or two over the years from Don Crowder, Joe Carver and Driftwood Don, but I'd love to see yours. I know Mel was a controversial figure and I won't go into any of that since I never knew him personally. I do know that he had a pretty high percentage of O.O. Grant blood and was somewhat of an authority on Big Blue bloodlines. I also know that his influence (good or bad) is still felt in the big blue community today. Same with Al Womack. I'd heard the same opinion of Bill Harshman as you mentioned from Mel over the years from several different sources. Since I never knew any of these guys personally (though I did meet Al Womack), I can't pass judgement. I'm forced to go on the word of others who I do know and trust who did know these guys personally.

In other threads we've mentioned Bill Green and Vinny Orlando, but I also see E.S. Traverse's name keep coming up. What can the big blue guys here tell us about E.S.?

[bignblu]

I rmember some years later Al Womack sent me photos of a dog he had called Jargo and that dog looked a lot like the Chock dog only Chock had more open spotting on him and like I said that rich brown color trim. I asked old Al about this dog and he said he thought the guy might have had some of the Ellison Blue Tige blood. I didn't know much about that but I had the Bill Harshman book (Big N Blue) and i knew about Bill Green from it. Al Womack said that most of the stuff in that book was fiction and that Harshman was pretty full of it. If I can find them I have a lot of old letters from Mel Farber and E. S. Traverse and we discussed a lot of the French influence back many years ago. Traverse seemed to know the French connection and Farber pretty much thought it was all made up. So who knows but Farber did say after i explained about the Chock dog that it might very well trace to Bill Green's dogs. He told me that Bill also had walkers and black and tans in his bear pack.

Mike,

I'd like to see some of those old Mel Farber letters. I've seen one or two over the years from Don Crowder, Joe Carver and Driftwood Don, but I'd love to see yours. I know Mel was a controversial figure and I won't go into any of that since I never knew him personally. I do know that he had a pretty high percentage of O.O. Grant blood and was somewhat of an authority on Big Blue bloodlines. I also know that his influence (good or bad) is still felt in the big blue community today. Same with Al Womack. I'd heard the same opinion of Bill Harshman as you mentioned from Mel over the years from several different sources. Since I never knew any of these guys personally (though I did meet Al Womack), I can't pass judgement. I'm forced to go on the word of others who I do know and trust who did know these guys personally.

In other threads we've mentioned Bill Green and Vinny Orlando, but I also see E.S. Traverse's name keep coming up. What can the big blue guys here tell us about E.S.?

I know Traverse very well, E_mail me if you have questions. bvignblu