are hounds livestock?

[schnell]

In a dispute between neighbors over a shot dog, are working dogs (hounds) considered livestock?

New Mexico defines dogs as personal property, but also leaves the definition of livestock to a list of barn yard critters AND other domesticated animals...

My thought is that husbandry practices (ie UKC registration, etc) and work history would tend to move them from "pet" to "livestock", at least in the mind of an official.

(This is a rural area outside city limits)

Does anyone have experience with this?

[Benny G]

This sounds like a very sticky situation. Back in the day, when hounds were kept and used by ranchers to catch and dispatch predators in order to protect their livestock, the hounds might not have been considered livestock them selves, but they were, however, a tax deductible part of the over all operation. That being said, and with the overall change in society and the game departments toward predators, AND ranchers, if you don't have a sizeable amount of country and a large herd of livestock yourself, good luck. In today's world, hounds are a hobbie and just a way to enjoy the outdoors. Outfitters can write off their hounds and expenses derived from them, but that's because they use the dogs to make a living. Any other reason to keep hounds would most likely make them nothing more than obnoxious pets in the eyes of neighbors and the general public.

I, personaly, have never had to fight a battle like this, so I might be speaking out of place. Good luck.

[sheimer]

I found out in Montana that hounds are not livestock. When I lost a hound to a wolf last winter I would have been paid if it was my border collie, horse, cow, goat, sheep or pig. Hounds do not count. States may be different, but I know about Montana.

Scott

[Al Vallejo]

The IRS says NO!

Hounds are tools, if you are a professional hunter/guide, they can be deductions. Otherwise they are just personal property.

If you can show some sort of business using your hounds, then you get to write off actual cost of dog(Amount you paid - not actual value), feed bill, vet bills, collars, leads, dog boxes,etc..

I got audited, so I have first hand experience.

[freetrapper42]

I have a lot of experience with this issue due to the fact thàt I am in charge out our animal control division. In New Mexico hounds are not considered livestock. You can kill a dog in the act of chasing, killing, or harassing livestock, but you can't kill a dog for just being on your place or attacking your dog. If you do you can be charged with animal cruelty. If your dog is loose and not hunting you can also be cited for dogs at large. Any damage that dog does while loose becomes a civil issue and must be decided in court unless the two parties can settle on their own. Hope this clears things up.
Al

[schnell]

Actually Yes, everyones experiences are valuable to me. I appreciate the feedback.

I figure I got no legal standing to complain about my dog getting shot in the guys yard. Looking over at his house though he's got no fence or gates, and his dogs are wandering in the street...

However, the other neighborhood is a little bent about him not just killing our dogs, but shooting centerfire rifles in between our houses, next to the elementry school. This is something that maybe local law enforcement should have a conversation about. There are 6 or 7 families with children within half a football field of him in all directions. The backstop for all his rifle fire is the rural elementry school across the street.

I also know he's a bad shot because a few days earlier I heard him take three shots (one then followed by two rapid followups) in the morning with a rifle (NOT a rimfire). I honestly thought that someone was shooting into my yard, so I investigated with a weapon, counted my critters, etc. but didn't see anyone, so did a once over the farmstead and came back inside still without seeing anyone. I wasn't sure where it was at the time, but now know who was doing the shooting. After adding up all the events, now I know that this was when he shot my other neighbors dog a few days before mine.

Sad circumstance, all in all.

[freetrapper42]

I don't know what kind oif law enforcement you have in your area but in New Mexico it is illegal to shoot within 150 yards of an occupied building without permission. From what you have said your neighbor should have been charged with cruelty to animals as well as negligent use of a firearm. People don't have the right to shoot someones dog because it is at large.

[Benny G]

In New Mexico, it IS leagal to shoot a dog that tresspasses on your property. This law is for the rural community, in order to protect livestock and poultry. I'm not aware of ANY place where it's leagal to discharge a firearm in close proximity to occupied dwellings, outside of the protection of your life, or the life of others.

On a different note, I used to have sheep. I had a Great Pyrenees guard dog that my neighbor killed. To completely understand the complications involved, you would have to know how gaurd dogs operate. Months before this happened, I had gone to my neighbors and asked them if there would be ANY problems concerning my dog. They assurred me that there wouldn't. I was out of town hunting when they killed my dog. From that day forward, coyotes wiped out my sheep. I had no legal recourse, since my dog was on their property. So, being the guy that I am, I assured them that their fancy roping horses that they kept on my end of the property would soon be gut shot. They moved them, I moved, and we still don't get along. Go figure!

[nmplott]

all the guy has to have is a goat, a chicken, or just any form of livestock and make the allegation your hound was harassing it....that gives him the legal justification to shoot your dog, and if he is a good liar he can say that your hound growled at him on his property and he feared for his life and that justifies everything he did...although its a lie it is a way to get out any legal trouble.

[freetrapper42]

Lol!! Lots of people think that's the way it works and lots of people end up in court paying big fines for shooting dogs they have no proof were in the process of killing or harassing livestock. Then they get all confused and upset when they get a citation. And u can't shoot a dog because it is growling at you. If an animal is attacking you can kill the animal but if you go inside and remove yourself from the threat and get a gun and come back out you are committing animal cruelty. Like I said I deal with this issue on a daily basis.

[BEAR HUNTER]

Freetrapper. I am not trying to start an argument with you I am truely curious. You are right about being charged with animal cruelty. I am a retired cop and have seen this done. I refused to arrest anyone for animal cruelty for shooting a dog. I would write it up and submit it and it would never get prosecuted. My question (and I have asked it of cops and animal control Nazi's before) how can shooting a dog be considered animal cruelty when shooting an animal during hunting or to butcher is not. The answer I have gotten in the past is you are unnecisarily depriving the animal of its right to live. I call B.S. It should be more of a vandalism since dogs are property. Now if you gut shoot it just to watch it suffer I can see your arguement.

[schnell]

Another question, is this a sheriff's matter or a livestock official's matter? What would the appropriate agency be?

[Benny G]

Sheriff's department.

[freetrapper42]

I'm not saying I agree with the way the law is written, I'm just saying that it is the way it is. Our animal control officers always try to work with people that have livestock when loose dogs come onto their property by bringing out traps and citing the owners of the dogs. As far as an animal trespassing on your property, its an animal it doesn't recognize property lines. Most people you run into think they can shoot people that come onto their property. I feel that I should be able to protect my property from being damaged or killed but that belief won't keep me out of court. People get prosecuted around here all the time for it and several have gotten yrs in jail over it. Schnell the proper department to take this issue to is the sheriff's office. Good luck.
Al

[schnell]

I really appreciate the feedback.

I've been distressed, and getting perspective helps. If I can use what I'm learning to prevent any repeats it'll be priceless to me.