Exercise to understand shock Training

[dwalton]

Maybe this will help those that are trying to learn the cause and effect of a training collar. Have your wife make a list of what she would like for your to do on a Saturday instead of you going hunting. Put them in order and do not let your trainee see them. Now put the shock on high and put it on give her the transmitter. With seeing the list or her telling you in what order for you to do them or even what they are you try get it right in the order she wrote down what she wanted done. She shocks you ever time you do not get it right until you get it right. You never having seen the list. At the end of the day you can share how that went for each of you. That is about what you are doing to a young dog that does not have a clue as to what you want. There has been a lot of good information on here about training young dogs some of it is far better than others. Shocking works if done right but it is still abuse. We are working with dogs that we have limited ability to communicate with us but yet we expect them to understand even when we do not know whats going ourselves. Maybe there is a better and easier ways that what we know. Dewey

[al baldwin]

Dewey there is a lot of wisdom in that post. Have started working with a couple 5 month old pups on the basic come command. After some sessions on a long rope with no collar, have now started working with an ecollar. One of the pups has pick up quicker than the other, pleased today when the slower pup responded to the vibe mode and returned to his kennel on command, after a little patience on my part. I scraped the tone mode when I noticed both pups could hear the tone when only one was toned. Al

[JTG]

Mr. Walton,
I would have to agree and it's the one of the reasons few pups leave here. Like people, you want to catch them doing something right, no matter how small it is and reward them for the slightest effort. I have seen service dogs do amazing things and rarely you will see them being punished with pain. Anytime you use pain, you set them back from learning to their fullest. If you do use pain, the pleasure should be a hundred fold. Dogs move away from pain and towards pleasure. Pups learn very much like an adolescent child mind, over confidence and insecurity. Pain at the wrong time and the wrong way, regresses their learning and more often than not, will keep them form reaching their full potential.

[pegleg]

Why were e collars invented? Is there a use for them? A houndsmen teaches his hound all those things he wants him to know. Then after that dog has learned these things if he decides to ignore them its there to remind him to behave. Trash breaking varies from area to area like types of hounds and other things do. But that e collar makes it possible to be fair and correct every time a dog trashes. But saying each hound has the same training needs is wrong. When someone ask how to train a hound you've never seen your really just guessing. The only thing my hounds need electricity for is trash and that goes away pretty quick. But there's dogs out there that aren't willing or able to learn other things. Like come or quiet or don't growl/fight etc. My preference is hounds willing and capable of learning with out lots of correction. If they aren't I don't waste time on them. But other guys believe a hound that can be pulled of a track bye anything less then a act of god is useless.
The down side is the easy dogs get ruined and the hard headed ones never are a pleasure to hunt. We can talk about training dogs but its hound hunters that need the help. I don't promote heavy handed correction . but if its that or cull the dog who's choice is it? I rather skip it all and avoid owning or breeding hounds like that.
The best thing everyone can do is use the least amount of pressure required to get the correct behavior. Then those that breed should select dogs that handle. And more importantly share with new hound owners correct handling. Yes a e collar is required for some hounds helpful on most and never needed on a few. And that's not exactly what I want to say but its as close as I could get and still be polite.

[bearsnva]

I know there are some very knowledgeable hound guys on here because I read a lot of the cat posts and training suggestions presented on here. (That includes dwalton). I don't reply much because there is no single best training way for all dogs and the subject gets hashed out pretty well. I do not believe in over doing the harshness in training, just use the least effective amount of force or stimulation. However I think dwalton has over simplified his ecollar example. If used correctly a dog should not even know to associate the stimulation/shock back to the owner. That is the greatest advantage to the ecollars. There are too many reputable professional trainers using them for them to be useless.

[houndsandterriers]

Legal or not legal. Crime or not a crime. If someone commits a crime then we can all agree that that person needs to be prosecuted.

Shock collars are good for some people not good for others. I don't think it is right or wrong its just a tool. People do what works for them in a legal way. There is laws in place for the people that cant operate in a certain amount of reasonability.

[dwalton]

Shock collars are a tool that is used by most people as a short cut in training. It maybe the only tool that works on dogs that have been bred that are hard headed unmanageable dogs for some people. My point is that when a person does not learn the basic of beginning training and uses the e-collar as abusive training tool it is all about control and power of a dog. When a e-collar is used out of anger to get the dog to do what you want it to do, that is about you not training your dog. If done properly a tone will work far better, less abusive with better results. Dogs can be trained to come off a jump track with just a tone, to leave a tree and follow you out without leashes just by voice command. Just a few minutes in the evening goes a long way in working your dogs. A perfect thing to do in the off season for you and your dog. There is a lot of folk lore about how to train a dog that is from the past. Stop to think what would it be like to get into the dogs head and train from his perspective having a willing partner. It just takes a little time to have a partner that is far more enjoyable and successful to hunt with. Good luck Dewey

[Trueblue]

A tool is only as good as the man behind it. In the hands of a craftsman, its an indispensable part of the finished product. In the hands of someone who is ignorant of how to use it, you never get a finished product. For those who are ignorant, if they don't have a shock collar, they will figure out another way to ruin them.

[merlo_105]

Trueblue and Dewey you guys are spot on. Like most I have my preference on the nature of my dogs I like a natural that's willing to please in a calm up beat manor. It come's down to time and what you want out of the dog most people jump to the end rather then start from the beginning. Patience is an obvious factor. But it's a common thing most successful hound hunters or dog hunters in general have well behaved dogs. Most cases dog training has nothing to do with the dog but more the handler. The dog's I like have been very easy to break with very minimal stimulation if any mostly a verbal No!!! Or a No and a tone has been all its took. Two day's ago I had a year old check a 9 month old. Guys who hunt with broke dogs train broke dogs.

[al baldwin]

Broke, is a word one wants to use careful in my experience. Broke in good company, is much easier to accomplish than broke in any company. For sure one wants to use as little force as possible with young dogs making sure dogs understand what they are being corrected for, before turning up the intensity level. However, once a dog understands off game is a no, no, been on lots good game, and runs off game, I have never ruined one by turning up the heat. A trashy dog is worthless to me unless it can be stopped, so what choice do I have? What happened to the term some agreed to in an earlier post, dogs are never broke until you shovel dirt on them. Just wanted to add my thoughts to give young hunters another point of view. Al

[pegleg]

Well another point here is most decent cat dogs are more intelligent then other types of hound. So cat hunters are going to have a different view on training then say hog or bear hunters. I haven't personally ever seen a hard headed hound make a good bobcat dog. But I have seen them make lion or bear dogs.maybe its circumstance

[merlo_105]

Al, Your right most mine are Broke in each others company. I have two and hunt a third that are as broke as broke gets there Check dogs. I agree I haven't seen where a dog knows what its supposed to be doing get bothered by getting a little heat for running trash. I don't tolerate trash and won't but I do what I do and am always trying or learning from you more experienced guys.

[JTG]

Timing of negative reinforcement is very important in training any type of dog. Three to four months and younger, it best not to use that type of correction, positive reinforcement is a better tool. At any age, give the correction while they are thinking about it, prior to the act and it will be much more effective.
If basic commands are ingrained, it can be used as a force multiplier.

[horshur]

David posted a tutorial of sorts that is in members only section...a dyslexic..perhaps non intuitive use of shock collar...

when is the last time you all stopped drinking cause of a bad hangover??

[bearsnva]

when is the last time you all stopped drinking cause of a bad hangover??---horshur

Now that is breaking it down into basic understandable houndsman terms. Good job shur. LOL