get to the head

[Dan Edwards]

I would just like to hear the cat hunters theories and their trail dogs. Do you guys believe in dogs that want to get to the head? Do think they have more guts, brains, or what is it that makes these dogs that way? Do you think they can catch as many cats as a dog that is a "track" dog?

[Nolte]

I'm not 100% on what your asking Dan, but around here I think a guy needs both. Or a dog that can switch it over. The first track is getting them jumped and most times in this neck of the woods you need a dog that will grind a crappy track. Then when it gets rolling, they need to go into a "cut corner" mode if they are going to catch it. If they keep following the track throug brush piles, blow downs and circles, you are going to have a tough time sealing the deal. Unless you get lucky and the cat decides to just climb without being pressure and the dogs are good enough to locate it.

[Mr.pacojack]

I'm not 100% on what your asking Dan, but around here I think a guy needs both. Or a dog that can switch it over. The first track is getting them jumped and most times in this neck of the woods you need a dog that will grind a crappy track. Then when it gets rolling, they need to go into a "cut corner" mode if they are going to catch it. If they keep following the track throug brush piles, blow downs and circles, you are going to have a tough time sealing the deal. Unless you get lucky and the cat decides to just climb without being pressure and the dogs are good enough to locate it.

I agree

[Mike Leonard]

Now I only know a little about bobcat hunting and it has all been this west mountain type hunting, and I know things are different everywhere you go. South Texas, different, deep south, piney woods and flat out desert. But one thing remains the same from what I gather:bobcat dogs don't come in bunches like grapes.

I just listened to a Florida cat race that had some track burning dogs in it and everyone I heard sounded absolutley desperate to get to the head of the cat. I mean they were driving that track, screaming for the lead and you could hear that desperation in their track mouth it was all about the catch. Now I may be all wrong but from what I have seen that same intensity would translate any place a cat set his foot, and these dogs would catch cats.

A lot of dogs trail cats a little and then if the cat goes into the phantom stage and pully his dirties on them they come up with a big loss and the track seems like it gets terrible and it does go cold if they ever do get it lined out again. Occasionaly dogs will get on a red hot one and put it up quick by driving the air out of it and they will look like world beaters until the next cat track comes along.

So I don't know Dan but for me I don't care if it is bobcat, lion or coon, I want a dog that is running for the head and is plumb pissed off if they get up a tree before he can grab them. LOL!

[twist]

I like a smart track dog that does'nt hang up. They need to drift out when the track gets tough and keep it moving and once it is in the jump stage the dog needs to be able to track with his head up and (not make a lose on the jump) and then if they cant locate and tree you still have nothing. So all out speed if not used right means nothing. Alot of the so called real fast speed dogs are just fallowers and over run the track if you took away the good solid track dog with them they would be lost and never be able to get to the jump stage of the hunt. I guess what it all boils down to is the good steady no mistake dog catches more game. jmo Andy

[Dan Edwards]

Two outstanding replys. I hope more decide to get on here and join the discussion.

[Dan Edwards]

Sorry Twist, I had not read yours yet for we were both posting at about the same time. Thanks for joining in though.

[U.R.E.]

I think you need a dog that will work hard and run hard. It depends on what you as a hunter likes as much as it has to do with conditions. If you don't enjoy laying on the box listening to the dog poke a track out all morning you won't like a dog that does it. some guys like a hot enough track that the dogs burn it up.

I personally would rather cold trail all day than drive around hunting for a hot track. The conditions now become a factor.

So both, work on a tough on track and run smart on a jumped track.

[david]

always stirring things up Edwards.

Sure is nice to have it all in one dog. I know it exists, but I have never owned it nor been close to it.

If you dont have a cold trailer, on most days, then you dont have a jumped cat. If you dont have a jumped cat, then you dont have a caught cat. But if you dont have a dog that can catch a jumped cat, you dont have a caught cat either.

In some areas if the dogs dont catch the cat on the ground, then you dont have a caught cat either, because they dont tree.

For me in the areas I have hunted most recently, if I dont have an individual dog that can stop a bobcat on the ground, then I have a pack of good coon dogs or lion dogs or bear dogs but worthless as bobcat dogs.
It only takes one dog to make that stop, and the other dogs may be only a few seconds behind, but if that one dog is not in the pack, that stop may never happen, and usually wont except in ideal conditions and circumstances.

Everyone wants that complete dog, but I recomend the specialist in this case, because your chances of finding the specialist to run with a good cold tracker are far far greater than would be your chances of finding it all in one dog. If your goal is that of breeding the complete bobcat dog, forget about the specialist and keep working the kinks in and out of your line. But if you want to catch bobcats, find a dog that can catch bobcats.

Every dog yard full of hounds has dogs that can learn to cold trail a bobcat if their trainer would keep them away from bears and other easy to follow game. Honestly, any full bred hound I have ever owned learned to cold trail bobcats quite well. Obviously, some better than others, some much faster than others, but all of them good enough to take a reasonable cold track and get the bobcat jumped. There is a lot of training involved in making a good bobcat tracker, But any hound I have owned had the raw material.

I dont think the bobcat catching specialist is as hard to find as folks seem to think. Alot of us are into hunting with hounds because we like the way they look and sound. I think that might be why people think a cat catching dog is so hard to find. Some of them probably look and sound the way we are used to, but I am afraid some of them will not.

Here's a clue for the areas I have hunted though: if your jumped races are lasting more than 20 to 45 minutes befor the cat is caught on the ground, you definately dont have that dog. If your jumped races are lasting 2 to 6 hours, you have some phenomonally good track dogs, you dont have a catch dog, IMO. But to keep a track alive that long is a beautiful thing in itself, if you are in the mood for a very long rock concert.

"Keep on rockin in the free world" (Neil Young)

Actually, one of my favorite hunt memories was with a friend and two hounds. We had kept the track alive for six hours, but that cat was playing with us the whole time. Never ever saw where it actually had to run. But he did take to circling a cedar swamp. Somehow the younger, less experienced hound got to going around the circle backwards, his older experienced cousin kept going frontwards. You guessed it, where the two dogs met sat a cat in a tree!

cats do wear down and can make mistakes. Dogs are sometimes capable of brilliant incompetence. Fun stuff.

[Dan Edwards]

Another great reply. Thanks David. Anybody else got anything more to ad. I know pete should have something to say about this. I was out walkin with the kids today and seem some more interesting things that I would love to write about on here but I know that I wont be able to put it in words. I tried but had to edit my post.

[briarpatch]

David, I agree completely with your post. I no longer hunt bobcats, but in my 20 years of doing so I never owned or hunted with a dog who was extra strong in every area. Have you ever hunted with one that was? I mean hunted with it enough to know that it was not just a "one time wonder?" Of course, I have hunted with some that looked great in some situations, but in other circumstances they had their problems.

Sure would love to hunt with one in dry ground rough country that could strike a very cold track, work it up, run it hard without long loses and then put ii in a tree or catch it CONSISTENTLY.

briarpatch

[david]

Sounds like you found something with your kids again Dan. Wish you could find the words for it, but the fact that you can't says enough.

David, I agree completely with your post. I no longer hunt bobcats, but in my 20 years of doing so I never owned or hunted with a dog who was extra strong in every area. Have you ever hunted with one that was? I mean hunted with it enough to know that it was not just a "one time wonder?" Of course, I have hunted with some that looked great in some situations, but in other circumstances they had their problems.
briarpatch

No I have not, Briar Patch. I have heard of them, and I really do beleive they can exist. Not a perfect dog, but a "complete bobcat dog". It is just that I have never been around one long enough to say with confidence that it was. I have hunted with some of the top westcoast bobcat hunters alive and dead, and there is a good possibility that I was in the presence of one of those dogs. But I have bought dogs with this type reputation, and they never ever live up to it in reality.

Part of the problem is that there really are not very many bobcat hunters that have a complete and intimate knowledge of their dogs ability in every stage and circumstance of bobcat hunting. It sounds harsh, but if I can tell by looking at a man that he could not possibly keep up with a bobcat race in the woods and brush (at least sometimes), then I lose some confidence in his ability to truely know every aspect of his dog.

It is also more difficult for me to trust that a man has intimate knowledge and understanding of an individual dogs ability if he owns and hunts large groups of dogs. There are some things that can only be learned about a dog by hunting him with other dogs, but there are some very important things that can not be learned until that dog is hunted alone and in a pair or trio.

In my experience, the dogs that have these amazing reputations have been dogs that are hunted in packs. Yes, they have greatly distinguished themselves. They have greatly improved the packs success rate etc. But like you said, seperated and put under the microscope, they all seem to have some place they break down.

The other thing that must be considered is the handler/trainer. Some men are just greatly gifted at taking a gifted dog toward it's maximum potential hunt after hunt after hunt. Put the same dog in my hands, and all of a sudden he's not so amazing. Some dogs have great hunting gifts, but are not strong emotionally, and will never perform well for anyone but their beloved master. They also may not perform well if there is anything at all emotionally upsetting about a certain hunt. (strange people, strange events).

I think the complete bobcat dog is possible, and I think it exists, and I encourage breeders striving for that goal, but no, I have not seen it with my own two eyes. Yes, there are definately some things I beleive in that I have never seen.

Keep the faith

[Hipshooter]

I have heard of one dog catching bobcats alone on dry ground on a regular basis, But I never seen one.
Now any old dog can tree a bobcat by accident once in a great while.
I hunt with a lot of different cat hunters in Tex, Okla, kANS that catch a lot of cats.
Every one has a lot of dogs, when 2 guys hunt togeather it is not unusal to turn 10 to 15 dogs loose. I don,t think the number of dogs makes much difference, the fast dogs are moving the track & the rest are just following, after the cat is jumped. Now on a cold trail the cold nosed dogs have to do their thing & the rest is just following along, till they can smell the track.
The ideal for one hunter is
2 cold nosed dogs for starting & getting the track runable for the fast dogs.
2 speed & drive dogs, that can drive a track & make the cat make a mistake.
2 tree dogs that can keep in the race & find the tree.
Most dogs can do only one of these tasks.
Sometimes u can have a dog that can do 2.
And a dog that can do all 3 is very rare.
The most important thing in running cats is a good population of cats.
If the cat population is poor u can,t do much of any thing.
U can,t train pups much. u need to get on a cat race almost every time u go hunting
Cats are hard to start some times even in high population country. M 2 cents worth on cat hunting.

[briarpatch]

Hipshooter.......your "2 cents" are very accurate and worth a lot more than two cents.

briarpatch

[fox hunter]

I like a dog that can trail enough to get the job done with a drifting track stile with enough speed and grit to tree or kill the cat on the ground. I WONT KEEP A DOG THAT TRAILS WITH NO SPEED OR ONE THAT TRAILS HAS SPEED AND WONT TREE. A good cat dog can cold trail ,drift a track on a loose ,tree ,have speed and enough grit to kill a bob if caught on the ground