Hunter or hound ?

[twist]

Good topic Mark, i am with you on a dog being able to complete its own track i would not own a dog that can not go truck to tree by itself. But have never owned a dog that did not need help from time to time and being able to see what happens (snow) i would rather help the dog from time to time to teach them to move out rather than set on a loose and learn nothing. Also in this area in our cold poor scent conditions at times i will help the dogs to get the track lined out and up and moving. If not there would be some tracks that the dogs would not be able to start and get lined out again this is in my area and has seemed to work well for my styleof hunting. Lets hear what others do in times like this. Andy

[al baldwin]

Andy if I hunted snow, most likely would help when possible. Bare ground not that many opportunity to help. Not total against helping, but like mark says, are we helping or teaching dogs to depend on us? Think if every time a young hound got hung up in rough ground, we ran to help, how long would it take for them to solve that problem? Just something to think about. Help as much as one pleases, most have to pay there own feed bill. Al

[CRA]

Is a dog false treeing or slick treeing the dogs breed or the hunters lack of dog handling skills or knowledge to fix the problem?

When helping dogs in a lose are you really doing the dogs any good or are you just catching a cat? If a dog gets to where it is making loses i believe it is lacking in tracking ability.

Mark your statement on helping on a lose I feel is the same as helping on a tree.

In my opinion false trees are handler errors as much as bad breeding practices. Here are a few examples of mistakes a lot of hound hunters are guilty of and why (I believe) hunters are falling off into these deep canyons or hacking their way through a god awful thicket just to find nothing but a fooled pack of dogs barking into the sky.

Never locate for your dogs. Make your dogs locate and tree on their own. Don’t use modern technology, good vision or bright lights to find game in a tree. All that does is turn the trainer into the locating tree dog and not the hounds. Over praising, encouraging to tree and petting dogs too much at the tree. A lot of people may think I’m crazy to not over praise a dog at a tree that they located and treed. Over praising in my opinion make a tree dog (Sometimes) a little too eager to tree, because they want that special attention that comes when you show up. IMO there are other handler errors that cause false trees also. To name a few,using caged game to train dogs ((to tree)). I believe showing dog’s critters in cages causes (some dogs) to tree at anything that may resemble a critter in a tree. I once walked off into a deep canyon to a false tree to a dog treeing every breath on a beehive in a small oak tree. The only thing I can think of (besides the dog being an idiot) is she thought she seen a piece of game but was fooled by the beehive. I have seen dogs try and tree on big pack rat nests, that the packrats built up in the fork of a juniper tree that resembled a critter on a bad lose. Showing dog’s caged critters in a tree can also cause some to become tree jumpers and in some cases tree climbers. This is caused from placing the caged critter just out of reach from them, making them want to jump up or climb to get to the critter.

Ok, I have rambled enough but think about it for just a minute. If a handler is going to a bunch of false trees all the time, IMO they aren’t much of a trainer. No real dog man is going to put up with that crap for a second. So the way I look at it is if all hound hunters wouldn’t allow false treeing in their pack we would weed them out of the gene pools quickly. Most breeders put too much attention on flashy tree dogs and lose focus on what causes the need for a tree dog in the first place and that’s track power. A false tree dog is a sorry track dog IMO. If the hound hunting world all had a zero tolerance/no excuse false treeing policy in a few years we would all be spotting game in all the trees our hounds made happen.

[merlo_105]

I think this is a pretty good topic and alot of good views being tossed out there. Well here is some of mine. As for false tree'ing well that sucks but if you have good track dogs in the mix false tree'ing is simple and quik to fix. For the caged critter and tree'ing on it well I think it's a 50/50 thing. Im not real huge on taunting the dog to tree the cage by hoisting the cage up and down. When I come across a dog that has a real tuff time locating I'll put a coon up the tree about 45 feet and leave it there for thirty minutes or so. I dont let the cage touch the tree or the ground so the only scent is up in the air. I walk the dogs in to the area and just kinda chill out there and watch and see if they can wind the coon. Now for lose's in snow well thats pretty simple get in there and find the out track. On bare ground get in there and walk the dogs in a very large circle they will catch on quik. I dont have any problems with dogs making a lose and if some reason they do they know to make a huge circle. Most dogs dont hunt out far enough and thats what I think is a time burner they check the same area's over and over when they should be out checking around. Dogs caught a cat tonight and after twenty minutes and no one coming tree'd I Snuck in there and just hung out, out of there way but close enough where I could see what was going on and who was doing well after sitting there for awhile I spotted the cat and the dogs had it right just didnt have the confidence to say hey I got. I walked near and sat back down after a couple more minutes a dog got on the wood so I hurry up'd and got it to sound off after that all dogs went tree'd. Just a lack of confidence. That was three dogs under 2 years old... Now they dont do that every time but they did it that time so I semi helped all I did was say hey you got so own it. Funny how all the top hounds men are good handlers Yeah Im sure they have nothing to do with it lol

[cat hntr]

Knowing when to leave dogs alone is more important than helping but in the situation like merlo had where a little confidence was needed on a young dog some slight encouragement without getting to hopped up gives the dog confidence. Most people I have hunted with in the past get in there way to quick and don't let dogs learn.

[mark]

Merlo wrote "after that all dogs went treed"

In my opinion you may have helped a young dog with a lack of confidence but you caused two others to sit down and tree because another dog does. Thus helping to create one of the much talked about " me tooers " in reality how much good went on there?

[Emily]

good dogs can do a lot to train a newbie handler, if you pay close enough attention. If you have dogs you can trust, you will learn more from them than they will learn from you, but you have to try hard to make sense of what they are telling you. If a new handler starts with a new pup, chances are both will make some mistakes, and it will take longer to learn, but you will learn even if you ruin a dog or two in the process.
Sometimes, a good handler makes it look so easy its hard for a newbie to figure out what to pay attention to. Sometimes the good handler can explain his thinking, sometimes he just knows how to do it. JMO, but learn what you can from a good, trained dog, and a good handler if you can, but work with whatever you've got to work with and both you and the dog will make progress.
If either you or the dog stops making progress, and you aren't happy with where you are, its time either to sit bank and seriously rethink the situation or to try with a different dog. Different dogs have different strengths and weaknesses, even the best ones. Some work better with one handler, some with another. Some work better on one kind of game. (I have a great bear dog that's a complete ninny on coon.) Some work better in one kind of conditions or another.
The learning process takes patience and persistence. Very few people are instantly great handlers or dog trainers, but like any talent, some learn quicker than others. Same with dogs. Most of us keep learning as we gain experience, but some get stuck in a rut along the way.

[southern fox]

with what I have seen over the years is 1 must be the leader of the pack, a dog I have seen will look to man for guidance, I hunt all running dogs, on fox and bobcat I never have to touch any of them, only time I touch them is to put on a trackin collar, they all come by name, and will leave a race when I holler, time and lots of it is how its done, and good breeding practices, and the females are always to me smarter than a male, dogs are like people, they get messed up easily and outside influence is usually the cause, they will train just like whats training them, broke dogs with bad habits will pass these nasty habits to pups there being hunted with, i use a hot collar to teach obedience , but a electric collar will ruin the best of them if man does not know when to use it, has to be used at the moment wrong is taking place , as for me breaking a dog for running trash, I always use the collar exactly when wrong takes place, and its just not a bump its till he loads in the truck, when he runs trash I take him down to a level where he almost wont leave the truck, but I have lots of patience and I just keep hunting him, he knows then who is boss, and will listen ,load and wont have to mess with him much with a hot collar, hounds are a lot smarter than man gives them credit for, when u talk and he looks you in the eyes you can tell he isn't stupid, the ones I hunt when I talk they all listen , and when I hunt, I road hunt all at the same time, and when the truck stops and I sit there they will all come check me out lookin at me wondering whats next,

[cat hntr]

I don't have any problem with slick trees or me to dogs in my training but a person needs to be able to read each situation before getting involved and like I said before most of the time just letting the dog figure it out works the best. in my opinion being able to observe the details of each dog and lots of experience go along way. But I agree 99% of the time less human involvement is the best policy.

[bigg D]

great breeding in the hands of a great trainer can blow your mind

[merlo_105]

Mark, I see what your saying and I agree to an extent but anyone of them dogs can locate each have caught there own game. When I see three dogs trying to locate cause they know it went up I think they should all go and tree when its needed. If one dog was trying to locate and the others sitting on there thumb that would be a whole different story. Thats where I need to make the judgement to help or not help.

[mark]

Im not saying your wrong, just stating my opinion of what could cause bad habits in a young dog. A good locate dog should never honor another treed dog or its trainer. It should sit down and tree only when it knows the track has ended and has figured out where the game is. Anything less than that and you WILL have problems.

[merlo_105]

Locating is the one thing I dont want to help the dogs out on but when they have it picked right and are 95% sure its up there I think its ok to give them 5% and help. There not gonna rely on you for your help. Each dog and pack of dog and handler are different. Why walk a pup out on a track??? Your doing the tracking not the pup it boils down to you doing all the work does that mean that that pup wont track by its self NOOO... Me too dogs come from not being singled out...

[mark]

You're right

[al baldwin]

[quote="merlo_105. Me too dogs come from not being singled out...[/quote]

Merlo, have to respectful disagree, with part of that. Most the dogs I hunted were very seldom singled out. I found that if a dog had leadership qualities, they became pack leaders with hunting & maturity. Will use an example of Sunday hunt, seven dogs were trailing on bobcat, apparently the cat had fed all over a brushy hole, one dog found were the cat left that drainage & got out all the others. Not certain who was correct we allowed those others time to see who had the exit end. All tho we were 95% certain TJ HAD THE CAT. Suppose ten minutes had expired when the others returned. By then solo dog was over half mile away, out of hearing & garmin indicated he was running in circles & 20 minutes later indicated he had treed , but close to a mile away. Two old slow pokes started walking those other dogs in the direction garmin indicated. Luck was with us, found that hound treed solid, & able to walk those other dogs in the tree. TJ has only been solo hunted when that sort thing happens. Another good reason a solid tree hound is needed for us old guys. Respectful Al